1 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:08,419 so Alex thanks for coming on you've done 2 00:00:12,169 --> 00:00:10,410 a number of interviews on near-death 3 00:00:14,799 --> 00:00:12,179 experiences on both sides of the issue 4 00:00:18,380 --> 00:00:14,809 like with Michael Shermer Steven novella 5 00:00:19,220 --> 00:00:18,390 Susan Blackmore and then what's is Tim 6 00:00:22,370 --> 00:00:19,230 Vaughn 7 00:00:24,710 --> 00:00:22,380 what is it me pin van LOM old doctrine 8 00:00:26,150 --> 00:00:24,720 book yes I've seen quite a number of 9 00:00:28,279 --> 00:00:26,160 unities they're very interesting and you 10 00:00:30,019 --> 00:00:28,289 sent me a couple of links to research or 11 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:30,029 to the research they've done and I find 12 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:31,050 it very interesting I don't find any 13 00:00:34,910 --> 00:00:32,850 problems with it like some of the 14 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:34,920 skeptics have tried to argue against the 15 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:36,570 research but I don't I'm not gonna take 16 00:00:39,979 --> 00:00:38,250 that approach I think the research is 17 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:39,989 totally fine I totally agree near-death 18 00:00:45,250 --> 00:00:42,210 experiences are a real thing but my 19 00:00:47,690 --> 00:00:45,260 position is that it's not evidence of a 20 00:00:49,369 --> 00:00:47,700 non-physical mind because the brain just 21 00:00:51,049 --> 00:00:49,379 does weird things when it's in an 22 00:00:52,700 --> 00:00:51,059 impaired state so could you tell me a 23 00:00:56,290 --> 00:00:52,710 little bit about why you see this is 24 00:01:00,670 --> 00:00:56,300 evidence of a non-physical mind okay 25 00:01:03,349 --> 00:01:00,680 first off hats off to you you've already 26 00:01:06,289 --> 00:01:03,359 proven me wrong to a certain extent and 27 00:01:10,039 --> 00:01:06,299 won the debate by showing up man I 28 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:10,049 always say you know skeptics never 29 00:01:16,190 --> 00:01:14,490 debate and you've not only initiated the 30 00:01:18,890 --> 00:01:16,200 debate if you will if we can call this a 31 00:01:20,510 --> 00:01:18,900 debate but you know you engaged with the 32 00:01:22,670 --> 00:01:20,520 material and I said hey I don't want to 33 00:01:24,679 --> 00:01:22,680 just have kind of a stupid-ass you know 34 00:01:25,969 --> 00:01:24,689 kind of debate you're like no man tell 35 00:01:28,190 --> 00:01:25,979 me what you had it and then what you 36 00:01:30,289 --> 00:01:28,200 said right there was you know really 37 00:01:33,410 --> 00:01:30,299 cool I think that you've engaged with it 38 00:01:36,170 --> 00:01:33,420 so yeah I'm super excited to join you 39 00:01:38,030 --> 00:01:36,180 and talk about that and I think that the 40 00:01:40,670 --> 00:01:38,040 point that you just made is a really 41 00:01:43,460 --> 00:01:40,680 kind of important one but I almost feel 42 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:43,470 like we're even with that which is a 43 00:01:49,580 --> 00:01:45,810 great tee up to it we're kind of jumping 44 00:01:52,969 --> 00:01:49,590 into the middle of this because I think 45 00:01:56,389 --> 00:01:52,979 to really understand the debate if you 46 00:01:58,730 --> 00:01:56,399 will or the controversy why people are 47 00:02:00,740 --> 00:01:58,740 so upset about this we have to 48 00:02:03,940 --> 00:02:00,750 understand what's at stake what's at 49 00:02:08,150 --> 00:02:03,950 stake for science if you will if 50 00:02:11,809 --> 00:02:08,160 consciousness does survive bodily death 51 00:02:13,550 --> 00:02:11,819 as it appears to do in the near-death 52 00:02:15,790 --> 00:02:13,560 experience so 53 00:02:19,309 --> 00:02:15,800 what do you think about that you know 54 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:19,319 kind of approach what do you what do you 55 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:20,490 mean exactly when you say what's at 56 00:02:23,660 --> 00:02:22,290 stake for science cuz I have no problem 57 00:02:24,949 --> 00:02:23,670 if there's if there's a life after death 58 00:02:26,660 --> 00:02:24,959 that's awesome if there's a supernatural 59 00:02:28,460 --> 00:02:26,670 that's awesome if we can prove there's 60 00:02:30,170 --> 00:02:28,470 magic I would love all of that and I 61 00:02:31,370 --> 00:02:30,180 don't see any conflict with science I 62 00:02:32,780 --> 00:02:31,380 don't think there's anything at risk for 63 00:02:34,309 --> 00:02:32,790 science to admit that because if you can 64 00:02:35,630 --> 00:02:34,319 show it science would love it it would 65 00:02:36,650 --> 00:02:35,640 adopt it immediately so I don't know 66 00:02:39,140 --> 00:02:36,660 what you mean when you say there's 67 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:39,150 what's at risk and science by accepting 68 00:02:43,220 --> 00:02:41,370 this scene that's awesome that you said 69 00:02:46,009 --> 00:02:43,230 that although I've heard that from 70 00:02:47,990 --> 00:02:46,019 skeptics for the longest time and when I 71 00:02:49,370 --> 00:02:48,000 say skeptics you know the skeptic thing 72 00:02:51,710 --> 00:02:49,380 is kind of tired we're really talking 73 00:02:54,229 --> 00:02:51,720 about materialism and I like in the 74 00:02:57,110 --> 00:02:54,239 intro email that you originally sent me 75 00:02:59,270 --> 00:02:57,120 you said from a materialist atheist and 76 00:03:01,640 --> 00:02:59,280 I'm hoping that we can talk about both 77 00:03:04,009 --> 00:03:01,650 of those materialists and atheists 78 00:03:05,540 --> 00:03:04,019 because another thing hats off to you 79 00:03:07,670 --> 00:03:05,550 again I watched a couple of your videos 80 00:03:09,890 --> 00:03:07,680 and I like the way you're careful about 81 00:03:12,770 --> 00:03:09,900 defining things like defining atheist 82 00:03:16,130 --> 00:03:12,780 and I'm sure we can go into defining 83 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:16,140 materialist too but not to skate past 84 00:03:21,229 --> 00:03:18,090 the point cuz the point you just made 85 00:03:24,710 --> 00:03:21,239 there I think is really really important 86 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:24,720 I think that there is a lot more at 87 00:03:32,150 --> 00:03:29,610 stake for science if consciousness 88 00:03:35,870 --> 00:03:32,160 survives death first we have to we have 89 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:35,880 to break down what is your understanding 90 00:03:42,770 --> 00:03:40,170 as a materialist of the definition of 91 00:03:45,289 --> 00:03:42,780 consciousness from a neuroscience 92 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:45,299 standpoint and and so I'll just leave it 93 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:45,930 at that 94 00:03:49,550 --> 00:03:47,970 so I would define conscience is just an 95 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:49,560 emergent property of the brain kind of 96 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:51,810 like how stars don't actually exist 97 00:03:54,740 --> 00:03:53,370 they're just a whole bunch of hydrogen 98 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:54,750 atoms that have come together and have 99 00:03:58,520 --> 00:03:57,090 been fused by gravity to have these new 100 00:04:00,380 --> 00:03:58,530 effects that weren't present with the 101 00:04:01,819 --> 00:04:00,390 individual hydrogen atoms like so I see 102 00:04:03,380 --> 00:04:01,829 consciousness is that same kind of a 103 00:04:04,430 --> 00:04:03,390 thing where there's neurons in the 104 00:04:06,229 --> 00:04:04,440 brains and they're doing this new 105 00:04:07,610 --> 00:04:06,239 process that wasn't present with just 106 00:04:09,860 --> 00:04:07,620 the pure neurons because they've come 107 00:04:11,770 --> 00:04:09,870 together and under new natural forces 108 00:04:15,250 --> 00:04:11,780 that cause it to have new interactions 109 00:04:18,830 --> 00:04:15,260 awesome so the emergent property of 110 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:18,840 consciousness I'm gonna go out there on 111 00:04:24,710 --> 00:04:21,090 a limb and say right off the bat that 112 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:24,720 that's very a very shaky position I 113 00:04:29,530 --> 00:04:26,810 think there's really only 114 00:04:32,110 --> 00:04:29,540 two intellectually honest positions 115 00:04:33,730 --> 00:04:32,120 regarding consciousness but I would roll 116 00:04:35,530 --> 00:04:33,740 that back even further and I hate to 117 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:35,540 keep digressing but I think this is the 118 00:04:40,210 --> 00:04:38,090 problem with these debates a lot of 119 00:04:43,510 --> 00:04:40,220 times and I really like the way you're 120 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:43,520 open to kind of approaching it here but 121 00:04:47,379 --> 00:04:46,010 before I digress too far consciousness 122 00:04:50,730 --> 00:04:47,389 was emergent and you said that there's 123 00:04:54,580 --> 00:04:50,740 right company with that and there's more 124 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:54,590 thank you so you know it the one of the 125 00:04:59,020 --> 00:04:56,810 the Four Horsemen if you will of atheism 126 00:05:01,810 --> 00:04:59,030 is a guy named Daniel Dennett right 127 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:01,820 Bryan you know Dan Dennett he's a famous 128 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:04,370 philosopher at Tufts University and he's 129 00:05:07,990 --> 00:05:06,050 known for having the position for the 130 00:05:10,270 --> 00:05:08,000 longest time and it was the position it 131 00:05:12,940 --> 00:05:10,280 is really essentially the position of 132 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:12,950 science as we know it that consciousness 133 00:05:18,159 --> 00:05:15,290 is an illusion it's a trick it's not 134 00:05:20,770 --> 00:05:18,169 real that you're there's this physical 135 00:05:23,469 --> 00:05:20,780 property to your brain these neurons 136 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:23,479 firing chemicals all that stuff and it 137 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:26,570 creates consciousness now what you're 138 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:28,610 saying is really something a little bit 139 00:05:32,230 --> 00:05:30,050 different which is the middle ground 140 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:32,240 that people have gone to because a lot 141 00:05:36,969 --> 00:05:34,010 of people attacked Dennett and said 142 00:05:39,310 --> 00:05:36,979 that's kind of an absurd idea that 143 00:05:42,370 --> 00:05:39,320 consciousness is an illusion that our 144 00:05:47,170 --> 00:05:42,380 entire experience of who we are isn't 145 00:05:49,810 --> 00:05:47,180 real that's a theory that doesn't isn't 146 00:05:52,630 --> 00:05:49,820 supported by anyone's experience so it's 147 00:05:54,820 --> 00:05:52,640 just kind of a standalone idea out there 148 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:54,830 and then you had these other people on 149 00:06:01,980 --> 00:05:57,770 the other side who and this traces all 150 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:01,990 the way back to the great mystical 151 00:06:09,010 --> 00:06:06,890 physicist so Niels Bohr Heisenberg the 152 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:09,020 Schrodinger and the cat and even 153 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:11,930 Einstein at the end of his life were 154 00:06:17,980 --> 00:06:14,330 saying hey there's something going on 155 00:06:20,110 --> 00:06:17,990 here with this thing that we call 156 00:06:23,020 --> 00:06:20,120 consciousness that seems to be coming 157 00:06:25,779 --> 00:06:23,030 into play and we have to deal with it 158 00:06:28,330 --> 00:06:25,789 and the most extreme part of that 159 00:06:30,420 --> 00:06:28,340 position is the idea of idealism which 160 00:06:33,610 --> 00:06:30,430 is a fancy term but it just means that 161 00:06:37,029 --> 00:06:33,620 somehow or another consciousness is at 162 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:37,039 the core of everything that we see and 163 00:06:40,629 --> 00:06:39,770 experience so what you're saying with 164 00:06:43,659 --> 00:06:40,639 this emerge 165 00:06:47,529 --> 00:06:43,669 property is this kind of murky middle 166 00:06:51,100 --> 00:06:47,539 ground that people in the mainstream 167 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:51,110 science community have and it's really 168 00:06:56,499 --> 00:06:52,849 part of the mainstream science community 169 00:06:59,830 --> 00:06:56,509 have kind of kind of dropped on to try 170 00:07:02,499 --> 00:06:59,840 and fix the problem of Daniel Dennett 171 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:02,509 consciousness is an illusion which is a 172 00:07:10,269 --> 00:07:05,090 goofy idea and you can even hear Sam 173 00:07:12,369 --> 00:07:10,279 Harris and David Chalmers you know Sam 174 00:07:14,850 --> 00:07:12,379 Harris well-known atheist and Javid 175 00:07:17,559 --> 00:07:14,860 Chalmers one of the best-known 176 00:07:19,570 --> 00:07:17,569 consciousness researchers I always play 177 00:07:21,339 --> 00:07:19,580 this clip where they're going Dennett 178 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:21,349 doesn't really believe that does he 179 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:23,810 because it's kind of a goofy idea so 180 00:07:28,390 --> 00:07:26,330 it's really a passe idea that 181 00:07:30,029 --> 00:07:28,400 consciousness is an illusion and what 182 00:07:32,499 --> 00:07:30,039 people have adopted is this 183 00:07:35,379 --> 00:07:32,509 consciousness is an emergent property of 184 00:07:37,869 --> 00:07:35,389 the brain so I'd ask anyone who wants to 185 00:07:41,019 --> 00:07:37,879 take that position from a scientific 186 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:41,029 standpoint I'd say ok then tell me about 187 00:07:46,779 --> 00:07:44,210 consciousness when does it begin when 188 00:07:50,019 --> 00:07:46,789 does it end what's necessary and 189 00:07:52,089 --> 00:07:50,029 sufficient to cause consciousness where 190 00:07:54,550 --> 00:07:52,099 does consciousness exist we think were 191 00:07:57,820 --> 00:07:54,560 conscious our dog's conscious most 192 00:08:00,909 --> 00:07:57,830 people say yeah is our rocks conscious 193 00:08:03,309 --> 00:08:00,919 most people say no the fact is we don't 194 00:08:07,260 --> 00:08:03,319 know we don't have an answer to any of 195 00:08:09,850 --> 00:08:07,270 those questions so unlike a lot of 196 00:08:13,029 --> 00:08:09,860 scientific debates that we would have 197 00:08:16,749 --> 00:08:13,039 where we would both be piling up data 198 00:08:19,779 --> 00:08:16,759 and trying to figure out whose data is 199 00:08:22,899 --> 00:08:19,789 better in this case what we have is just 200 00:08:26,079 --> 00:08:22,909 I think this is everyone would agree 201 00:08:28,329 --> 00:08:26,089 just two theories about what is the 202 00:08:29,909 --> 00:08:28,339 nature of this consciousness because to 203 00:08:33,100 --> 00:08:29,919 say consciousness is an emergent 204 00:08:35,829 --> 00:08:33,110 property of the brain doesn't really 205 00:08:38,529 --> 00:08:35,839 mean anything it's just a theory 206 00:08:41,050 --> 00:08:38,539 if there's nothing to support that just 207 00:08:42,659 --> 00:08:41,060 like if I was going to say and and so in 208 00:08:45,699 --> 00:08:42,669 a minute we'll talk about consciousness 209 00:08:48,430 --> 00:08:45,709 surviving death and why that's a way to 210 00:08:51,430 --> 00:08:48,440 kind of in a roundabout way approach 211 00:08:54,340 --> 00:08:51,440 this question of is consciousness and 212 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:54,350 emergent property of the brain but let 213 00:08:58,269 --> 00:08:56,810 me back up do you get what everything 214 00:09:00,220 --> 00:08:58,279 I'm saying or do you have a problem with 215 00:09:02,079 --> 00:09:00,230 any of that well a couple things first 216 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:02,089 your note on Dan did it I don't take Dan 217 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:04,370 in its approach I see what Dan did it 218 00:09:07,420 --> 00:09:06,290 does is when he refutes consciousness is 219 00:09:09,309 --> 00:09:07,430 kind of like what he does when he 220 00:09:12,430 --> 00:09:09,319 accepts freewill he's changing the 221 00:09:13,630 --> 00:09:12,440 definition a bit so trying to understand 222 00:09:15,220 --> 00:09:13,640 what he really believes is a tough 223 00:09:18,430 --> 00:09:15,230 process because we aren't actually the 224 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:18,440 boss for right right so so I definitely 225 00:09:21,340 --> 00:09:19,610 don't take Dan Dennett approach and I 226 00:09:23,470 --> 00:09:21,350 think most people agree consciousness 227 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:23,480 exists as something we just don't know 228 00:09:26,470 --> 00:09:24,890 what it is and you're right that same 229 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:26,480 consciousness is an emergent property is 230 00:09:30,819 --> 00:09:28,250 essentially just saying consciousness is 231 00:09:32,139 --> 00:09:30,829 some unknown natural phenomena it's just 232 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:32,149 like saying that consciousness is a 233 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:33,290 supernatural phenomena we don't know 234 00:09:37,990 --> 00:09:35,690 what it is we have no idea so so we are 235 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:38,000 in agreement there that those are on par 236 00:09:43,030 --> 00:09:40,490 to say that consciousness is a natural 237 00:09:44,860 --> 00:09:43,040 phenomena is on par with it was saying 238 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:44,870 the consciousness is a supernatural and 239 00:09:48,610 --> 00:09:46,730 I don't like the term supernatural but 240 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:48,620 you used it so we'll just say it there 241 00:09:55,689 --> 00:09:52,730 is there is no grounding that that we 242 00:09:58,269 --> 00:09:55,699 can say consciousness is a physical 243 00:10:00,009 --> 00:09:58,279 property consciousness is fits into 244 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:00,019 materialism for all these reasons that I 245 00:10:02,860 --> 00:10:01,250 said because I can press you and say 246 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:02,870 when does it begin when does it end 247 00:10:05,889 --> 00:10:04,610 what's necessary and sufficient and you 248 00:10:08,110 --> 00:10:05,899 would say hey these are normally things 249 00:10:09,490 --> 00:10:08,120 I can tell you in science I can tell you 250 00:10:11,350 --> 00:10:09,500 all those things and then I can say 251 00:10:12,850 --> 00:10:11,360 something's real and with regard to 252 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:12,860 consciousness you can't say any of those 253 00:10:18,220 --> 00:10:15,410 things so you have to say hey my best 254 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:18,230 guess is that consciousness is this 255 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:20,689 natural property of the brain right 256 00:10:23,829 --> 00:10:22,490 right so we can't explain consciousness 257 00:10:26,380 --> 00:10:23,839 at all we don't we don't know what it is 258 00:10:27,550 --> 00:10:26,390 so pretty trying to say to define to 259 00:10:28,929 --> 00:10:27,560 answer those questions we don't have 260 00:10:30,460 --> 00:10:28,939 answers to those but I would say that 261 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:30,470 the naturalist explanation is a little 262 00:10:35,019 --> 00:10:33,410 better than the superyacht you would say 263 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:35,029 that and I wouldn't say that but here's 264 00:10:41,860 --> 00:10:39,890 the so just to clarify because we have 265 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:41,870 induction we know that the naturalistic 266 00:10:44,860 --> 00:10:43,370 things have worked in the past we have 267 00:10:46,420 --> 00:10:44,870 lots of reason to believe there are 268 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:46,430 these naturalistic things that exist in 269 00:10:49,809 --> 00:10:48,110 the world and they can produce stuff 270 00:10:51,309 --> 00:10:49,819 worse we don't have as far as the 271 00:10:52,689 --> 00:10:51,319 naturalist worldview you don't have any 272 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:52,699 evidence of the supernatural actually 273 00:10:56,050 --> 00:10:54,290 being there so it's kind of like just 274 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:56,060 making up a new category and then saying 275 00:10:58,420 --> 00:10:57,050 well it's conscious could be this new 276 00:11:00,850 --> 00:10:58,430 category of thing that we have no 277 00:11:03,010 --> 00:11:00,860 evidence for so that would not have any 278 00:11:04,750 --> 00:11:03,020 basis and I don't agree with any of that 279 00:11:07,070 --> 00:11:04,760 I agree the first part of what you said 280 00:11:09,950 --> 00:11:07,080 and and everything beyond that is 281 00:11:11,810 --> 00:11:09,960 some form of kind of fudging with things 282 00:11:14,140 --> 00:11:11,820 so I like where we were we're in 283 00:11:17,330 --> 00:11:14,150 agreement that to say that consciousness 284 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:17,340 is a non-physical finite we can't say 285 00:11:21,590 --> 00:11:20,010 that to say that their consciousness 286 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:21,600 isn't so we're in agreement with that 287 00:11:25,370 --> 00:11:23,850 all the rest of that stuff we'd get 288 00:11:26,780 --> 00:11:25,380 sidetracked and all this kind of 289 00:11:29,990 --> 00:11:26,790 [\h__\h] arguments that people have 290 00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:30,000 about you know all these definitions of 291 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:32,910 what you know it's a red herring and 292 00:11:36,410 --> 00:11:34,650 although say all those things I want to 293 00:11:40,250 --> 00:11:36,420 get into that [\h__\h] here's where I would 294 00:11:42,590 --> 00:11:40,260 propel the conversation is back to your 295 00:11:46,070 --> 00:11:42,600 first question about near-death 296 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:46,080 experience because Tom I can tell you 297 00:11:50,030 --> 00:11:47,730 and I told you in the email that I sent 298 00:11:52,790 --> 00:11:50,040 you I don't have any real interest in 299 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:52,800 near-death experience I started this 300 00:11:56,570 --> 00:11:54,810 thing just trying to answer big-picture 301 00:11:59,240 --> 00:11:56,580 questions and the biggest picture 302 00:12:01,220 --> 00:11:59,250 question Who am I and that's both a 303 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:01,230 philosophical question but it's also the 304 00:12:06,110 --> 00:12:03,330 fundamental scientific question and it's 305 00:12:08,300 --> 00:12:06,120 also those happens to be the fundamental 306 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:08,310 spiritual questions that's a good big 307 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:10,770 [\h__\h] question and here's the thing 308 00:12:16,550 --> 00:12:13,890 about who are we as it relates to 309 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:16,560 consciousness you can go try and answer 310 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:18,450 that question like I did and you can go 311 00:12:23,180 --> 00:12:20,970 look at parapsychology you can go look 312 00:12:25,220 --> 00:12:23,190 in neuroscience and neuroplasticity and 313 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:25,230 you can go look at all these ways to 314 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:28,650 potentially falsify this emergent 315 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:31,530 property of the brain thing but the 316 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:34,890 cleanest and easiest way to do it I 317 00:12:39,590 --> 00:12:37,890 found or I think in my opinion is to 318 00:12:44,230 --> 00:12:39,600 look at this near-death experience 319 00:12:48,890 --> 00:12:44,240 science because if consciousness exists 320 00:12:50,510 --> 00:12:48,900 beyond bodily death then all bets are 321 00:12:53,450 --> 00:12:50,520 off and you gotta kind of come over to 322 00:12:55,790 --> 00:12:53,460 my camp so that can be kind of that's 323 00:12:58,190 --> 00:12:55,800 the reason I got interested in it is 324 00:13:01,120 --> 00:12:58,200 number one here's some real science at 325 00:13:03,710 --> 00:13:01,130 this point over 200 peer-reviewed 326 00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:03,720 published papers on near-death 327 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:06,360 experience science there's some real 328 00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:08,730 data we can glom onto and at the end of 329 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:11,310 the day if it is what it seems to be 330 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:13,890 then we have a know a whole new ballgame 331 00:13:18,470 --> 00:13:16,410 with regard to this question that we 332 00:13:20,690 --> 00:13:18,480 both think is a fundamental question 333 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:20,700 about the nature of consciousness 334 00:13:24,980 --> 00:13:22,770 what do you think about that are you on 335 00:13:26,690 --> 00:13:24,990 board with that yeah if we can show that 336 00:13:28,550 --> 00:13:26,700 you can have consciousness independent 337 00:13:30,740 --> 00:13:28,560 of the brain that's good evidence that 338 00:13:32,870 --> 00:13:30,750 consciousness can exist in a non 339 00:13:34,550 --> 00:13:32,880 material kind of a way from my 340 00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:34,560 experience I'm happy to grant all of the 341 00:13:37,220 --> 00:13:35,760 research that I've looked at it seems 342 00:13:39,290 --> 00:13:37,230 like pretty decent research as far as I 343 00:13:40,370 --> 00:13:39,300 can tell but the only thing I would 344 00:13:41,930 --> 00:13:40,380 disagree with would be the conclusion 345 00:13:43,250 --> 00:13:41,940 like this doesn't indicate that there's 346 00:13:46,010 --> 00:13:43,260 anything outside of the brain like all 347 00:13:50,090 --> 00:13:46,020 this can be expressed brain stuff right 348 00:13:53,390 --> 00:13:50,100 right so hey we've we've crossed the 349 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:53,400 biggest mountain I think to to be able 350 00:13:58,130 --> 00:13:56,010 to define things in those ways and to 351 00:14:01,520 --> 00:13:58,140 understand that that is the interest 352 00:14:03,230 --> 00:14:01,530 that is really underlying the interest 353 00:14:05,510 --> 00:14:03,240 in near-death experience and that's why 354 00:14:07,910 --> 00:14:05,520 near-death experience science creates so 355 00:14:10,460 --> 00:14:07,920 much havoc you know and we'll talk about 356 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:10,470 that maybe or maybe not but it's why 357 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:13,170 people who study near-death experience 358 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:15,810 take a lot of heat it's why people like 359 00:14:21,380 --> 00:14:18,330 Evan Alexander who come out and even 360 00:14:23,660 --> 00:14:21,390 though he's a Harvard brain surgeon you 361 00:14:26,270 --> 00:14:23,670 know he's more or less attacked and the 362 00:14:28,550 --> 00:14:26,280 reason behind that is there is a lot at 363 00:14:32,300 --> 00:14:28,560 stake with this near-death experience 364 00:14:33,740 --> 00:14:32,310 science but t jump you're not you you 365 00:14:35,390 --> 00:14:33,750 don't care about a that you you were 366 00:14:37,820 --> 00:14:35,400 cool with that you just said show me 367 00:14:38,030 --> 00:14:37,830 prove me that it's real and I respect 368 00:14:39,890 --> 00:14:38,040 that 369 00:14:41,530 --> 00:14:39,900 yeah just one caveat there I'd say the 370 00:14:43,790 --> 00:14:41,540 reasons and they're being attacked isn't 371 00:14:44,780 --> 00:14:43,800 isn't exactly how you're describing it 372 00:14:47,260 --> 00:14:44,790 the reason I think they're being 373 00:14:49,580 --> 00:14:47,270 attacked is because the ideology of 374 00:14:51,170 --> 00:14:49,590 idealism and dualism have been shown to 375 00:14:52,940 --> 00:14:51,180 be essentially empty like they're just 376 00:14:54,620 --> 00:14:52,950 labels that we put on things they don't 377 00:14:56,420 --> 00:14:54,630 really have any value and so if you're 378 00:14:58,580 --> 00:14:56,430 trying to impose these to try and 379 00:14:59,930 --> 00:14:58,590 explain things until we actually have 380 00:15:02,630 --> 00:14:59,940 some kind of mechanistic way to interact 381 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:02,640 with this other ontology of stuff it's 382 00:15:06,830 --> 00:15:04,290 kind of just an empty label like if I 383 00:15:08,510 --> 00:15:06,840 said unknown natural phenomenon kind of 384 00:15:09,860 --> 00:15:08,520 a thing like we can just label it but 385 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:09,870 then we can do nothing with it and so 386 00:15:12,950 --> 00:15:11,850 using that as an explanation isn't an 387 00:15:14,810 --> 00:15:12,960 explanation and that's why they're 388 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:14,820 attacked for trying to use these as 389 00:15:19,070 --> 00:15:16,290 explanations of the near-death 390 00:15:21,020 --> 00:15:19,080 experience fair enough that's not the 391 00:15:22,910 --> 00:15:21,030 way that I see it obviously but we're 392 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:22,920 gonna avoid those kind of silly 393 00:15:26,750 --> 00:15:24,570 arguments because what you said is 394 00:15:29,060 --> 00:15:26,760 perfect could be perfectly valid there's 395 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:29,070 no way I can say it's one way or another 396 00:15:34,610 --> 00:15:32,130 so I'll just leave that stand and so now 397 00:15:38,420 --> 00:15:34,620 let's talk about near-death 398 00:15:39,860 --> 00:15:38,430 experience science and one of the things 399 00:15:41,630 --> 00:15:39,870 that I think we're going to get into 400 00:15:42,620 --> 00:15:41,640 right off the bat and you've kind of 401 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:42,630 teed it up already 402 00:15:47,630 --> 00:15:45,930 is this idea of death you know and one 403 00:15:50,540 --> 00:15:47,640 of the things you'll hear and then from 404 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:50,550 critics of near-death experience science 405 00:15:53,750 --> 00:15:52,410 is to say well they're not really dead I 406 00:15:55,490 --> 00:15:53,760 know they're not really dead because 407 00:15:57,500 --> 00:15:55,500 they came back and they're they weren't 408 00:16:00,980 --> 00:15:57,510 really dead what do you have any 409 00:16:02,810 --> 00:16:00,990 standing position on that I would not 410 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:02,820 approach it in that way exactly I don't 411 00:16:07,910 --> 00:16:05,610 think okay because because that's a 412 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:07,920 common that's a common argument and if 413 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:10,170 you're not the the research on that or 414 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:12,450 the science on that is really the other 415 00:16:18,350 --> 00:16:15,810 way around is the misnomer is that it's 416 00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:18,360 not near-death experience its death 417 00:16:24,470 --> 00:16:20,910 experience and where we would go to 418 00:16:26,810 --> 00:16:24,480 confirm that is with scientists doctors 419 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:26,820 in this case who deal with death and one 420 00:16:32,180 --> 00:16:29,730 of the top ones in the world is a guy 421 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:32,190 named dr. Sam Parr Nia and he's at New 422 00:16:35,900 --> 00:16:34,050 York Stony Brook he was at Cornell 423 00:16:38,030 --> 00:16:35,910 before that when he published a lot of 424 00:16:40,060 --> 00:16:38,040 this research on near-death experience 425 00:16:43,190 --> 00:16:40,070 science and he's one of the top 426 00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:43,200 resuscitation doctors researchers in the 427 00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:47,310 world so he's looking at what brain 428 00:16:53,180 --> 00:16:50,310 death means when do we die when can 429 00:16:55,790 --> 00:16:53,190 those cells be restored and get to 430 00:16:59,570 --> 00:16:55,800 working again and what he'll tell you is 431 00:17:01,070 --> 00:16:59,580 that number one these people are dead I 432 00:17:03,380 --> 00:17:01,080 can't we can't say all of it because 433 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:03,390 there's a first of all there's a broad 434 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:06,330 category of people that fall into this 435 00:17:11,780 --> 00:17:09,810 category of near-death but the ones that 436 00:17:13,370 --> 00:17:11,790 we usually talk about are people that 437 00:17:15,350 --> 00:17:13,380 have had a cardiac arrest that is 438 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:15,360 they've had a heart attack their heart 439 00:17:22,490 --> 00:17:18,930 is stopped and they're three to five 440 00:17:25,490 --> 00:17:22,500 seven sometimes even longer minutes pass 441 00:17:28,820 --> 00:17:25,500 that heart stopping because that's at a 442 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:28,830 point when Sam pornea would say these 443 00:17:34,970 --> 00:17:32,010 people are dead by every way that we 444 00:17:37,670 --> 00:17:34,980 talk about death medically and measure 445 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:37,680 it so these people are truly dead so the 446 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:40,290 next question that kind of the back door 447 00:17:45,470 --> 00:17:43,170 for people is okay they're dead but what 448 00:17:47,780 --> 00:17:45,480 do we know about their brain their brain 449 00:17:48,410 --> 00:17:47,790 really isn't dead I heard about this 450 00:17:50,660 --> 00:17:48,420 research 451 00:17:52,670 --> 00:17:50,670 [\h__\h] University of Michigan where these 452 00:17:56,350 --> 00:17:52,680 rats had a little spike in their brain 453 00:17:59,090 --> 00:17:56,360 you know 15 minutes after they died 454 00:18:02,330 --> 00:17:59,100 again that's [\h__\h] and the reason 455 00:18:07,250 --> 00:18:02,340 it's [\h__\h] is because what we know 456 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:07,260 from 70 plus years of solid neuroscience 457 00:18:13,310 --> 00:18:10,170 is we know what it takes for a brain to 458 00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:13,320 create complex consciousness like the 459 00:18:17,930 --> 00:18:15,600 kind of consciousness it it's required 460 00:18:19,730 --> 00:18:17,940 to have this kind of conversation let 461 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:19,740 alone the kind of consciousness that 462 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:23,010 would be required to have the most 463 00:18:30,020 --> 00:18:26,490 extraordinary experience of your life it 464 00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:30,030 would require an enormous amount of 465 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:33,110 brain activity and an enormous amount of 466 00:18:40,820 --> 00:18:36,810 stuff that would light up any a EEG and 467 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:40,830 we don't see that what neuroscience 468 00:18:47,870 --> 00:18:44,250 tells us is that within 10 to 15 seconds 469 00:18:51,250 --> 00:18:47,880 after that heart stops there is no 470 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:51,260 electrical activity in the brain and 471 00:18:58,820 --> 00:18:55,170 therefore we cannot assume unless you're 472 00:19:01,190 --> 00:18:58,830 gonna do unless you know unless you want 473 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:01,200 to kind of overthrow neuroscience as we 474 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:03,450 know it and say oh no there's this other 475 00:19:09,110 --> 00:19:06,570 kind of brain activity that doesn't show 476 00:19:12,350 --> 00:19:09,120 up in any way but it's somehow creates 477 00:19:15,110 --> 00:19:12,360 so that's just kind of a silliness that 478 00:19:16,250 --> 00:19:15,120 I don't think we have to get into well 479 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:16,260 actually I'd kind of like to pick up on 480 00:19:20,300 --> 00:19:18,690 that silliness a little bit so ok I 481 00:19:21,710 --> 00:19:20,310 agree with you that there's no 482 00:19:23,810 --> 00:19:21,720 measurable brain activity based on our 483 00:19:25,850 --> 00:19:23,820 current understandings and methods but 484 00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:25,860 to quote Thomas Edison he said we only 485 00:19:29,090 --> 00:19:26,880 know a millionth of a percent of 486 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:29,100 anything so saying that we can't measure 487 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:30,810 it with our current activity therefore 488 00:19:33,740 --> 00:19:32,490 there is no brain activity is like 489 00:19:35,210 --> 00:19:33,750 saying well we've discovered a hammer 490 00:19:36,530 --> 00:19:35,220 and a screwdriver it can't be done with 491 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:36,540 a hammer and a screwdriver therefore it 492 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:38,010 can't be done with any tools and it must 493 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:40,410 be magic so it's not the calm that does 494 00:19:44,870 --> 00:19:43,650 look I'm sorry go ahead so there is 495 00:19:46,730 --> 00:19:44,880 still brain activity so the way I 496 00:19:48,710 --> 00:19:46,740 defined brain activity is is this cell 497 00:19:50,090 --> 00:19:48,720 still working is it is it alive is it 498 00:19:51,740 --> 00:19:50,100 still processing energy to still have 499 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:51,750 ATP and is it still sending signals if 500 00:19:54,500 --> 00:19:53,250 that is that if that is happening if 501 00:19:55,970 --> 00:19:54,510 there's a single cell on the brain doing 502 00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:55,980 that that's a brain activity by my 503 00:20:00,940 --> 00:19:57,930 definition and we can't measure that we 504 00:20:02,090 --> 00:20:00,950 keep with our fMRI x' measure like a 505 00:20:04,159 --> 00:20:02,100 minimum 506 00:20:05,450 --> 00:20:04,169 of like tens to hundreds of thousands of 507 00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:05,460 clusters of cells and if those are 508 00:20:09,529 --> 00:20:07,440 firing at a significant rate so we can't 509 00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:09,539 measure that kind of level there's 100 510 00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:11,370 billion neurons in the brain 100 511 00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:12,809 trillion connections we cannot measure 512 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:15,600 that detail to know when all of the 513 00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:17,610 cells in the brain are dead so there can 514 00:20:21,260 --> 00:20:19,049 still be brain activity if we define it 515 00:20:24,350 --> 00:20:21,270 as just the cells working and not all 516 00:20:25,490 --> 00:20:24,360 dead in that would not qualify as the 517 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:25,500 kind of brain activity that we can 518 00:20:31,970 --> 00:20:29,610 measure in an EEG or whatever right but 519 00:20:35,330 --> 00:20:31,980 see here is kind of where you're jumping 520 00:20:37,340 --> 00:20:35,340 off of science so if we're gonna stick 521 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:37,350 to the science then like I said when 522 00:20:42,140 --> 00:20:39,090 you're talking about brain death brain 523 00:20:45,020 --> 00:20:42,150 activity you're gonna start with Sam 524 00:20:47,330 --> 00:20:45,030 pornea who's just a recognized world 525 00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:47,340 expert in resuscitation not just 526 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:50,370 near-death experience and you'd ask him 527 00:20:56,419 --> 00:20:53,250 and then you go ask people like the guy 528 00:20:59,990 --> 00:20:56,429 I interviewed who's an expert on EEG and 529 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:00,000 you'd go ask him you know is it possible 530 00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:01,530 what you're saying is true is it 531 00:21:07,159 --> 00:21:04,559 possible that we're having all this that 532 00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:07,169 there is this consciousness that isn't 533 00:21:11,690 --> 00:21:10,080 being measured by our current thing let 534 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:11,700 me clarify so I agree there isn't 535 00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:14,250 conscious you do need that EEG level to 536 00:21:19,039 --> 00:21:15,600 have consciousness I agree with you on 537 00:21:21,620 --> 00:21:19,049 that part what but then it's game over 538 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:21,630 right unless we get into the time thing 539 00:21:28,010 --> 00:21:24,450 no so here's here's my explanation of 540 00:21:30,260 --> 00:21:28,020 NDEs when you are awake conscious 541 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:30,270 experience 99% of everything you 542 00:21:32,899 --> 00:21:31,770 experience is your subconscious this is 543 00:21:34,820 --> 00:21:32,909 not your conscious mind that you're 544 00:21:36,409 --> 00:21:34,830 experiencing you don't experience colors 545 00:21:38,210 --> 00:21:36,419 colors are an imposition 546 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:38,220 on two things that your subconscious 547 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:39,690 mind puts there all you're very motional 548 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:42,090 associations your distance tracking all 549 00:21:46,340 --> 00:21:43,890 that stuff is your subconscious mind so 550 00:21:47,870 --> 00:21:46,350 if we lose consciousness that doesn't 551 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:47,880 mean we lose sub consciousness so we can 552 00:21:51,260 --> 00:21:49,890 we can still have we can lose the 553 00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:51,270 conscious mind activity but still have 554 00:21:55,039 --> 00:21:52,710 our subconscious working as it does 555 00:21:56,330 --> 00:21:55,049 still causing all of our like bodily 556 00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:56,340 functions and neurons to fire an 557 00:21:58,700 --> 00:21:57,690 electrical signals throughout our body 558 00:21:59,990 --> 00:21:58,710 without consciousness 559 00:22:02,690 --> 00:22:00,000 you don't need consciousness for any of 560 00:22:04,390 --> 00:22:02,700 that so the subconscious mind can still 561 00:22:07,220 --> 00:22:04,400 be processing all of our sensations 562 00:22:10,340 --> 00:22:07,230 taste touch sight smell and putting that 563 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:10,350 into it's like the model of reality that 564 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:12,330 our conscious mind experiences but 565 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:15,210 without consciousness it's it's we just 566 00:22:17,610 --> 00:22:16,090 don't experience it so 567 00:22:18,779 --> 00:22:17,620 still being put to the brain but we 568 00:22:20,909 --> 00:22:18,789 don't have this conscious experience of 569 00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:20,919 it and it's being saved to our memory as 570 00:22:24,390 --> 00:22:22,960 if it was conscious experience it's like 571 00:22:26,279 --> 00:22:24,400 if you imagine you're just walking away 572 00:22:28,140 --> 00:22:26,289 walking around every day normally and 573 00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:28,150 you suddenly lose conscious experience 574 00:22:32,279 --> 00:22:31,120 without any prior warning then your 575 00:22:33,539 --> 00:22:32,289 subconscious still going to be doing 576 00:22:34,890 --> 00:22:33,549 what it normally does and they're still 577 00:22:37,470 --> 00:22:34,900 going to be saving all that information 578 00:22:38,669 --> 00:22:37,480 as conscious memory so my explanation is 579 00:22:40,140 --> 00:22:38,679 is that when people go through these 580 00:22:42,450 --> 00:22:40,150 near-death experiences it's their 581 00:22:44,580 --> 00:22:42,460 subconscious putting all this stuff in 582 00:22:45,659 --> 00:22:44,590 as conscious experience into memory so 583 00:22:46,919 --> 00:22:45,669 they're not actually experiencing it 584 00:22:49,049 --> 00:22:46,929 they just remember it as having 585 00:22:51,090 --> 00:22:49,059 experienced it does that make sense 586 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:51,100 it makes sense it just isn't supported 587 00:22:58,190 --> 00:22:54,490 by by science I mean any neuroscientist 588 00:23:00,870 --> 00:22:58,200 will tell you that that's not how our 589 00:23:03,299 --> 00:23:00,880 measurement of brain activity works 590 00:23:06,779 --> 00:23:03,309 you're you're kind of you would have to 591 00:23:08,490 --> 00:23:06,789 be defining some kind of new kind of 592 00:23:10,830 --> 00:23:08,500 brain activity like you were saying 593 00:23:13,740 --> 00:23:10,840 before that has yet been undiscovered 594 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:13,750 and as you know that's just really uh if 595 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:15,610 we're gonna speculate that far then I 596 00:23:20,430 --> 00:23:18,610 can suggest all sorts of angels and 597 00:23:22,860 --> 00:23:20,440 demons and other things that have to 598 00:23:24,930 --> 00:23:22,870 come into play you know but if we're 599 00:23:28,889 --> 00:23:24,940 gonna play in this little playground 600 00:23:30,180 --> 00:23:28,899 called established science and in this 601 00:23:32,279 --> 00:23:30,190 case it would be established 602 00:23:34,139 --> 00:23:32,289 neuroscience then I think we have to 603 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:34,149 play within those parameters and those 604 00:23:39,690 --> 00:23:36,610 parameters wouldn't allow what you're 605 00:23:41,820 --> 00:23:39,700 saying no one would would would support 606 00:23:44,399 --> 00:23:41,830 that idea and a lot of people have tried 607 00:23:46,889 --> 00:23:44,409 right because this near-death experience 608 00:23:48,180 --> 00:23:46,899 science and we can talk about this but I 609 00:23:50,610 --> 00:23:48,190 don't want to get us sidetracked 610 00:23:52,919 --> 00:23:50,620 although I totally but my people have 611 00:23:56,820 --> 00:23:52,929 tried to plenty of people have tried to 612 00:24:00,510 --> 00:23:56,830 explain what's going on that explanation 613 00:24:01,889 --> 00:24:00,520 isn't really on that on the table right 614 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:01,899 I agree with you but I'm saying neither 615 00:24:06,330 --> 00:24:04,450 is yours the brain not being a physical 616 00:24:07,799 --> 00:24:06,340 thing also isn't supported by science 617 00:24:09,210 --> 00:24:07,809 and also isn't on the table so right now 618 00:24:12,090 --> 00:24:09,220 we're on equal footing except mine 619 00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:12,100 hasn't it was because here's the here's 620 00:24:17,159 --> 00:24:15,760 the problem is that you're you're 621 00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:17,169 standing and you're defending a 622 00:24:22,769 --> 00:24:20,460 particular position it is the 623 00:24:24,990 --> 00:24:22,779 neuroscience position it's like you said 624 00:24:27,570 --> 00:24:25,000 at the beginning consciousness is an 625 00:24:29,910 --> 00:24:27,580 emergent property of the brain my 626 00:24:34,380 --> 00:24:29,920 position is a false for 627 00:24:38,490 --> 00:24:34,390 pation of your position and it says if I 628 00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:38,500 can show consciousness at a time when we 629 00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:41,470 can more or less agree that the brain is 630 00:24:46,740 --> 00:24:44,260 so severely compromised that it 631 00:24:50,180 --> 00:24:46,750 shouldn't be able to create conscious 632 00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:50,190 experiences memories let alone the most 633 00:24:57,030 --> 00:24:52,960 significant experiences of someone's 634 00:25:00,570 --> 00:24:57,040 life then I have falsified your position 635 00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:00,580 because it can no longer stand up that 636 00:25:05,940 --> 00:25:03,430 we didn't have that brain that you said 637 00:25:08,730 --> 00:25:05,950 it was emerging from and we still had 638 00:25:11,460 --> 00:25:08,740 consciousness so I will have falsified 639 00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:11,470 your position no you've only falsified 640 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:12,910 that our current science can't explain 641 00:25:16,650 --> 00:25:14,770 consciousness at that level so it's like 642 00:25:18,210 --> 00:25:16,660 it goes back to my analogy if all we've 643 00:25:19,650 --> 00:25:18,220 discovered is a screwdriver and a hammer 644 00:25:21,060 --> 00:25:19,660 and it can't be done with a screwdriver 645 00:25:22,530 --> 00:25:21,070 and a hammer well then and therefore 646 00:25:26,820 --> 00:25:22,540 must be magic and can't be done with any 647 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:26,830 tools that's what you're saying remember 648 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:28,810 your position is to falsify my position 649 00:25:31,410 --> 00:25:30,130 in my position as conscience is an 650 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:31,420 emergent property of natural processes 651 00:25:36,270 --> 00:25:33,730 which means you can't just falsify the 652 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:36,280 no natural processes you have to falsify 653 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:38,530 all natural processes including the ones 654 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:40,330 we don't know so all I have to do is 655 00:25:43,050 --> 00:25:41,410 shall we here's a potential natural 656 00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:43,060 process that can explain it if you can't 657 00:25:47,970 --> 00:25:45,130 falsify that then you haven't falsified 658 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:47,980 naturalism that's not how the like I 659 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:50,890 said that's kind of not how it works in 660 00:25:57,030 --> 00:25:54,250 terms of science right you're what 661 00:26:00,990 --> 00:25:57,040 you're suggesting would require a whole 662 00:26:03,290 --> 00:26:01,000 new kind of neuroscience that is 663 00:26:06,540 --> 00:26:03,300 completely beyond what we currently 664 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:06,550 understand so we can have that that's 665 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:08,650 called like a promissory note you know 666 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:10,690 and you can have that promissory note 667 00:26:15,630 --> 00:26:13,330 well I can have all sorts of promissory 668 00:26:18,030 --> 00:26:15,640 notes like I said about angels and 669 00:26:21,060 --> 00:26:18,040 demons and about all the rest of that 670 00:26:23,340 --> 00:26:21,070 stuff but that's that's kind of [\h__\h] 671 00:26:26,220 --> 00:26:23,350 II you know what I mean you gotta stick 672 00:26:28,740 --> 00:26:26,230 to you gotta stick to what's known you 673 00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:28,750 can't say oh it's out there we just 674 00:26:33,930 --> 00:26:32,110 haven't discovered it yet talk to like I 675 00:26:36,330 --> 00:26:33,940 said talk to the experts and they'll 676 00:26:38,340 --> 00:26:36,340 tell you no there's no you in the way to 677 00:26:39,870 --> 00:26:38,350 ask the question is really interesting 678 00:26:43,770 --> 00:26:39,880 because I've done it in the interviews 679 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:43,780 take it outside of near-death experience 680 00:26:47,580 --> 00:26:45,730 this gets into your atheism [\h__\h] with 681 00:26:49,260 --> 00:26:47,590 like apologetics with Christians you 682 00:26:51,930 --> 00:26:49,270 know like you can get Christians to 683 00:26:53,790 --> 00:26:51,940 agree to a lot of [\h__\h] stuff that 684 00:26:55,620 --> 00:26:53,800 that is stupid you know 685 00:26:57,180 --> 00:26:55,630 and but then when you put it back in the 686 00:26:59,400 --> 00:26:57,190 context of what they want to believe 687 00:27:02,370 --> 00:26:59,410 they go oh no no no here's how it fits 688 00:27:05,820 --> 00:27:02,380 in backwards well the same thing here go 689 00:27:07,140 --> 00:27:05,830 talk to like I did an expert on aegs and 690 00:27:09,540 --> 00:27:07,150 don't say [\h__\h] about near-death 691 00:27:12,930 --> 00:27:09,550 experience just say hey is there any 692 00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:12,940 chance that a brain could be like this 693 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:15,520 and show this kind of neural this kind 694 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:17,770 of electrical activity and yet there's 695 00:27:22,620 --> 00:27:19,570 consciousness going on and what they'll 696 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:22,630 tell you is no way we have not only 50 697 00:27:28,110 --> 00:27:25,570 70 years of hundreds and hundreds and 698 00:27:31,050 --> 00:27:28,120 hundreds of established research on 699 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:31,060 humans as well as on animals we know 700 00:27:35,580 --> 00:27:32,890 that [\h__\h] backwards and forwards there's 701 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:35,590 nothing there so when you go talk to 702 00:27:39,030 --> 00:27:37,090 them independently you get straight 703 00:27:41,970 --> 00:27:39,040 answer so then you can't do the 704 00:27:44,070 --> 00:27:41,980 apologetics thing go oh yeah but even 705 00:27:45,660 --> 00:27:44,080 though he's been studying it for twenty 706 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:45,670 years and even though there's thousands 707 00:27:49,380 --> 00:27:47,530 of papers there's something those guys 708 00:27:52,350 --> 00:27:49,390 have missed it'll explain this 709 00:27:54,030 --> 00:27:52,360 near-death experience after all well I 710 00:27:55,140 --> 00:27:54,040 think you've kind of misunderstood how 711 00:27:58,280 --> 00:27:55,150 science works you're confusing 712 00:28:01,620 --> 00:27:58,290 epistemology and ontology so go back to 713 00:28:03,390 --> 00:28:01,630 Thomas Edison he said we only know one 714 00:28:05,100 --> 00:28:03,400 millionth of 1% of anything and that 715 00:28:06,780 --> 00:28:05,110 applies to neurology we don't have it 716 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:06,790 there is a lot of stuff we don't know 717 00:28:11,790 --> 00:28:08,650 what he says otherwise is wrong 718 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:11,800 immediately wrong good there's neurology 719 00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:13,570 and biology are the two most complicated 720 00:28:17,510 --> 00:28:15,130 fields in science and the ones we know 721 00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:17,520 the least about if you think we know 722 00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:19,840 understand this that you're just deluded 723 00:28:25,050 --> 00:28:22,000 we don't at all you know I was 724 00:28:27,180 --> 00:28:25,060 interviewing this guy one time and we're 725 00:28:29,670 --> 00:28:27,190 talking about ancient aliens and stuff 726 00:28:33,090 --> 00:28:29,680 like that and the guy was a Christian so 727 00:28:36,030 --> 00:28:33,100 he is really debunking the the alien 728 00:28:38,010 --> 00:28:36,040 thing and I was really open to his data 729 00:28:41,690 --> 00:28:38,020 in but then I kind of had to push him on 730 00:28:45,390 --> 00:28:41,700 the Christian thing you know and he goes 731 00:28:48,300 --> 00:28:45,400 you know and he was a little by biblical 732 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:48,310 literalist and he goes you know they 733 00:28:55,260 --> 00:28:51,970 found nails and I know what do you mean 734 00:28:57,390 --> 00:28:55,270 he goes well archaeologically they found 735 00:28:57,630 --> 00:28:57,400 that they smelt of the metal there they 736 00:29:00,990 --> 00:28:57,640 had 737 00:29:03,750 --> 00:29:01,000 the nails his point was hey Noah really 738 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:03,760 could have built that Ark cuz he had 739 00:29:08,730 --> 00:29:06,850 because there were nails and I was that 740 00:29:10,830 --> 00:29:08,740 always stuck with me cuz it's like it's 741 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:10,840 not about the [\h__\h] nails dude it's 742 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:13,450 about the story doesn't make any sense 743 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:16,570 you can't get hundreds of species of 744 00:29:21,660 --> 00:29:18,610 bees on a [\h__\h] yeah just the whole 745 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:21,670 thing is just [\h__\h] wacky and that's 746 00:29:26,039 --> 00:29:23,170 what you're offering up here 747 00:29:28,410 --> 00:29:26,049 it's just wacky to say well yeah of 748 00:29:30,870 --> 00:29:28,420 course that's how neuroscience works but 749 00:29:32,730 --> 00:29:30,880 you know what Thomas Edison said there's 750 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:32,740 one percent and there's something else 751 00:29:36,810 --> 00:29:34,690 out there and Alex it'll be discovered 752 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:36,820 in the future we'll find that even when 753 00:29:42,510 --> 00:29:39,250 brains show no activity there really is 754 00:29:43,980 --> 00:29:42,520 some SuperDuper background consciousness 755 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:43,990 that's no one ever known about until now 756 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:45,730 and it'll be discovered in the future 757 00:29:50,310 --> 00:29:48,130 fuckin'-a Tom if that's what you think 758 00:29:51,030 --> 00:29:50,320 man maybe you know there's no reason to 759 00:29:54,539 --> 00:29:51,040 debate that 760 00:29:57,150 --> 00:29:54,549 I can't debate your belief your faith 761 00:30:00,600 --> 00:29:57,160 that somehow there's something out there 762 00:30:02,820 --> 00:30:00,610 that will rescue you from the hard facts 763 00:30:05,370 --> 00:30:02,830 of what we know right now I can't debate 764 00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:05,380 that I'm not sure you're understanding 765 00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:06,910 how science works here so there's lots 766 00:30:13,799 --> 00:30:11,110 of things no science word let's let's go 767 00:30:15,570 --> 00:30:13,809 with like an example of the quantum 768 00:30:17,610 --> 00:30:15,580 physics quantum physics we discovered 769 00:30:19,020 --> 00:30:17,620 this particle duality where the double 770 00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:19,030 slit experiment we couldn't explain it 771 00:30:23,789 --> 00:30:21,760 and nothing in the current physics could 772 00:30:25,860 --> 00:30:23,799 explain it nothing so then do we just 773 00:30:27,030 --> 00:30:25,870 say well ah well it must not be physics 774 00:30:29,370 --> 00:30:27,040 and just we'll just attribute it to 775 00:30:31,289 --> 00:30:29,380 supernatural well no we just keep doing 776 00:30:32,730 --> 00:30:31,299 physics and eventually we do discover it 777 00:30:34,740 --> 00:30:32,740 that's kind of how science works there's 778 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:34,750 lots of things we can't explain but 779 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:36,970 there's always more to discover so I'm 780 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:39,010 not sure how your analogy compares here 781 00:30:41,940 --> 00:30:40,690 because mine is just this is how science 782 00:30:43,650 --> 00:30:41,950 works we don't there's lots of things we 783 00:30:45,870 --> 00:30:43,660 don't know we then learn more and 784 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:45,880 there's always more we can learn like 785 00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:48,250 everything in science is tentative like 786 00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:50,110 as Thomas Edison said we only know a 787 00:30:53,580 --> 00:30:51,910 millionth of a percent of anything we 788 00:30:56,070 --> 00:30:53,590 have not completed any study in any 789 00:30:57,750 --> 00:30:56,080 field ever we're not even close so the 790 00:30:59,700 --> 00:30:57,760 fact that we couldn't just discover more 791 00:31:01,680 --> 00:30:59,710 is like the fact that this is strange to 792 00:31:05,430 --> 00:31:01,690 you is very odd I don't quite understand 793 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:05,440 why you think that's comparable to the 794 00:31:11,100 --> 00:31:08,890 the nails in the cross wasn't the nails 795 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:11,110 in the cross it was nails and 796 00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:18,299 this is where you know we these debates 797 00:31:22,770 --> 00:31:21,760 just go downhill cuz you well I think 798 00:31:24,060 --> 00:31:22,780 that's just the weakness of your 799 00:31:25,380 --> 00:31:24,070 position you just I think you've 800 00:31:26,970 --> 00:31:25,390 misunderstood how science works 801 00:31:28,650 --> 00:31:26,980 completely and which is why so many 802 00:31:30,150 --> 00:31:28,660 people criticize your position like this 803 00:31:32,010 --> 00:31:30,160 is just a fact of science we know 804 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:32,020 nothing essentially of the universe we 805 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:34,210 know nothing you know zero of everything 806 00:31:39,750 --> 00:31:36,010 so let me make sure I understand your 807 00:31:44,250 --> 00:31:39,760 position your position is yes near-death 808 00:31:47,100 --> 00:31:44,260 experiences happen they happen after a 809 00:31:50,010 --> 00:31:47,110 time which the brain appears to be 810 00:31:52,350 --> 00:31:50,020 severely compromised and in the way that 811 00:31:56,159 --> 00:31:52,360 we normally associate with a brain that 812 00:31:58,919 --> 00:31:56,169 produces consciousness but there is some 813 00:32:01,350 --> 00:31:58,929 other processes going on that we can't 814 00:32:03,740 --> 00:32:01,360 currently measure that would account for 815 00:32:07,140 --> 00:32:03,750 the near-death experience is that a fair 816 00:32:09,450 --> 00:32:07,150 summary summary of your position yeah I 817 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:09,460 can actually go into more detail to like 818 00:32:13,950 --> 00:32:11,770 we know we can't measure that level of 819 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:13,960 detail because we know these things only 820 00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:15,490 measure at a certain level which is a 821 00:32:19,230 --> 00:32:17,200 range of tens to hundreds of thousands 822 00:32:20,190 --> 00:32:19,240 of neurons okay hold on before you go 823 00:32:22,049 --> 00:32:20,200 into all that because you're not an 824 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:22,059 expert in any of that what about the 825 00:32:28,980 --> 00:32:26,370 experts in neuroscience who say well Tom 826 00:32:32,010 --> 00:32:28,990 we've already tried to measure that we 827 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:32,020 don't believe that there is any activity 828 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:34,450 at this point there is any explanation 829 00:32:39,510 --> 00:32:36,850 for what you're talking about when 830 00:32:41,430 --> 00:32:39,520 brains are in these compromised states 831 00:32:45,539 --> 00:32:41,440 and they're not producing any electrical 832 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:45,549 activity Tom we've studied this every 833 00:32:50,310 --> 00:32:47,770 which way for seventy years there's no 834 00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:50,320 evidence of those kind of brain States 835 00:32:54,810 --> 00:32:52,809 ever producing consciousness what would 836 00:32:56,039 --> 00:32:54,820 you say to those neuroscientists well 837 00:32:57,810 --> 00:32:56,049 I'd say you're misrepresenting them 838 00:32:59,159 --> 00:32:57,820 because anyone I talked to I'm gonna ask 839 00:33:00,870 --> 00:32:59,169 can you measure at this level they're 840 00:33:02,070 --> 00:33:00,880 gonna say no our technology only goes to 841 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:02,080 this level we can't measure at this 842 00:33:05,970 --> 00:33:03,850 level yet when they come back and say 843 00:33:08,490 --> 00:33:05,980 but Tom we've measured it at this level 844 00:33:10,020 --> 00:33:08,500 and we don't see anything right now I'm 845 00:33:11,850 --> 00:33:10,030 gonna say can you measure to this level 846 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:11,860 they're gonna say no the maximum 847 00:33:14,940 --> 00:33:13,090 resolution we have is this level we 848 00:33:17,220 --> 00:33:14,950 can't measure it we do not have the 849 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:17,230 physical capabilities with fMRI zouri e 850 00:33:22,230 --> 00:33:20,050 G's to measure at this level yet can you 851 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:22,240 believe that at some point down the 852 00:33:25,050 --> 00:33:24,490 future we'll get to that level and then 853 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:25,060 match 854 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:26,410 Klee the problem will be solved and 855 00:33:29,910 --> 00:33:27,850 we'll say oh there it is that's what 856 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:29,920 happened well my argument is that you're 857 00:33:34,890 --> 00:33:31,810 trying to falsify this position that at 858 00:33:36,210 --> 00:33:34,900 any level that there can be a physical 859 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:36,220 explanation of consciousness no I'm 860 00:33:39,810 --> 00:33:38,050 saying you can't make that claim you 861 00:33:41,490 --> 00:33:39,820 can't justify that claim you can only 862 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:41,500 claim that to this this level of 863 00:33:45,030 --> 00:33:42,850 magnitude we don't have a physical 864 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:45,040 explanation of consciousness 100% agree 865 00:33:48,150 --> 00:33:46,330 with you but you can't claim at this 866 00:33:50,790 --> 00:33:48,160 level there isn't one hey maybe you know 867 00:33:53,190 --> 00:33:50,800 maybe Noah built that [\h__\h] arc man I 868 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:53,200 I don't know if he built the ark it just 869 00:33:57,810 --> 00:33:55,330 doesn't seem very likely to me but hey 870 00:33:59,340 --> 00:33:57,820 maybe well they seem equal to the ark 871 00:34:01,830 --> 00:33:59,350 example I mean because this is just 872 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:01,840 science you're just but you don't have 873 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:03,730 any science dude you're just time you're 874 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:06,250 just saying at some point there will be 875 00:34:10,740 --> 00:34:08,770 some discovery that will rescue my 876 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:10,750 position you're not basing it on 877 00:34:16,110 --> 00:34:12,850 anything that's been published so far 878 00:34:17,460 --> 00:34:16,120 the closest thing you have is that are 879 00:34:19,050 --> 00:34:17,470 you familiar with the study from the 880 00:34:23,130 --> 00:34:19,060 University of Michigan with the brain 881 00:34:26,730 --> 00:34:23,140 burst after 15 minutes of no brain 882 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:26,740 activity and the rats I know I'm not let 883 00:34:30,450 --> 00:34:28,210 me give it to you really really simply 884 00:34:34,350 --> 00:34:30,460 because this isn't this is like the 885 00:34:36,510 --> 00:34:34,360 closest thing that we have to science to 886 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:36,520 support your position well actually I 887 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:38,290 just saw one about where they tried to 888 00:34:43,500 --> 00:34:40,570 revitalize a pig pigs brains after it 889 00:34:44,940 --> 00:34:43,510 was killed and they tried to reignite 890 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:44,950 the brain activity they got some of it 891 00:34:49,740 --> 00:34:47,169 to work that was pretty cool listen to 892 00:34:51,720 --> 00:34:49,750 this one because it is the closest one I 893 00:34:53,669 --> 00:34:51,730 know that would fit into your wacky 894 00:34:54,930 --> 00:34:53,679 theory and that's that these guys at the 895 00:34:58,620 --> 00:34:54,940 University of Michigan 896 00:35:02,160 --> 00:34:58,630 they studied rats and they looked at the 897 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:02,170 EEG of these rats and the rats died and 898 00:35:08,010 --> 00:35:05,410 then there was a period of time and it 899 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:08,020 was in the minutes range like five ten I 900 00:35:12,780 --> 00:35:10,570 want to say 15 minutes and there was no 901 00:35:15,810 --> 00:35:12,790 activity and then at the very end there 902 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:15,820 was this bursts of activity and they 903 00:35:19,260 --> 00:35:17,290 didn't say it had anything to do with 904 00:35:20,940 --> 00:35:19,270 near-death experience but a bunch of 905 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:20,950 people jumped on the cause and said 906 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:23,050 because people like you are looking for 907 00:35:27,780 --> 00:35:26,410 some way to kind of blast out the 908 00:35:29,430 --> 00:35:27,790 near-death experience science and they 909 00:35:32,100 --> 00:35:29,440 said hey that's it that's near-death 910 00:35:33,900 --> 00:35:32,110 experience that's what it must be see we 911 00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:33,910 thought what you're saying we thought 912 00:35:39,050 --> 00:35:36,310 these brains were dead and yet here they 913 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:39,060 are we're having this burst of 914 00:35:46,410 --> 00:35:43,570 at the end that's the closest thing you 915 00:35:48,180 --> 00:35:46,420 have to science again that's a wacky 916 00:35:50,310 --> 00:35:48,190 idea and isn't supported by the 917 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:50,320 near-death experience science if you 918 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:52,090 really look at it if you really talk to 919 00:35:55,530 --> 00:35:54,130 the experts but it's closer to what 920 00:35:57,630 --> 00:35:55,540 you're talking about then to just say 921 00:36:00,210 --> 00:35:57,640 well there's something else out there 922 00:36:02,250 --> 00:36:00,220 that we haven't discovered yet that'll 923 00:36:03,690 --> 00:36:02,260 solve the problem alright let me clarify 924 00:36:06,270 --> 00:36:03,700 I think I'm making a different argument 925 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:06,280 here so your position is trying to 926 00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:08,530 falsify the naturalist position right 927 00:36:12,660 --> 00:36:09,510 that's correct 928 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:12,670 well what we said was that we both 929 00:36:15,870 --> 00:36:14,290 agreed that if you take the position 930 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:15,880 that consciousness is an emergent 931 00:36:22,170 --> 00:36:19,570 property of the brain one area of 932 00:36:23,940 --> 00:36:22,180 science to look at where we could kind 933 00:36:26,730 --> 00:36:23,950 of get a handle on whether that's true 934 00:36:29,700 --> 00:36:26,740 or not is near-death experience because 935 00:36:31,940 --> 00:36:29,710 near-death experience claims to be about 936 00:36:34,740 --> 00:36:31,950 people who are having consciousness 937 00:36:37,410 --> 00:36:34,750 experiences at a time when the brain is 938 00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:37,420 so severely compromised that modern day 939 00:36:42,750 --> 00:36:39,730 neuroscience would say it's impossible 940 00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:42,760 for it to have conscious experiences so 941 00:36:45,180 --> 00:36:44,710 right there you just made a critical 942 00:36:47,700 --> 00:36:45,190 mistake 943 00:36:50,940 --> 00:36:47,710 modern science can't ever say anything 944 00:36:52,500 --> 00:36:50,950 is impossible I didn't you know I didn't 945 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:52,510 actually say impossible 946 00:36:58,710 --> 00:36:55,810 I said modern science would say it's 947 00:37:00,330 --> 00:36:58,720 it's not within maybe I did say 948 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:00,340 impossible I'm sorry but it's saying 949 00:37:05,100 --> 00:37:02,770 that modern science neuroscience would 950 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:05,110 say there's no brain activity when 951 00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:06,970 there's no electrical activity in the 952 00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:08,710 brain that's what modern neuroscience 953 00:37:14,130 --> 00:37:12,250 would say categorically so you can go in 954 00:37:16,470 --> 00:37:14,140 and the categorically is the same thing 955 00:37:19,350 --> 00:37:16,480 as impossible all science is tentative 956 00:37:22,410 --> 00:37:19,360 and provisional okay okay it can say is 957 00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:22,420 yeah we can't measure this that's it you 958 00:37:25,380 --> 00:37:24,310 can't say it doesn't exist it says we 959 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:25,390 can't we can't say there is no 960 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:27,010 supernatural we can just say we can't 961 00:37:30,990 --> 00:37:28,690 measure any supernatural right 962 00:37:33,420 --> 00:37:31,000 yeah there's no argument there it's so 963 00:37:36,030 --> 00:37:33,430 so here's my argument you can't claim 964 00:37:37,740 --> 00:37:36,040 that it's not a natural explanation 965 00:37:38,250 --> 00:37:37,750 because it could be one we just haven't 966 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:38,260 discovered yet 967 00:37:42,930 --> 00:37:40,690 so you can't then conclude that because 968 00:37:44,970 --> 00:37:42,940 we can't measure it there is not a 969 00:37:46,350 --> 00:37:44,980 natural explanation now that there may 970 00:37:47,970 --> 00:37:46,360 or may not be I'm not going to make a 971 00:37:49,650 --> 00:37:47,980 claim on that I'm just saying that you 972 00:37:52,050 --> 00:37:49,660 do not have the justification to 973 00:37:53,029 --> 00:37:52,060 conclude it is not a natural explanation 974 00:37:54,919 --> 00:37:53,039 there 975 00:37:56,419 --> 00:37:54,929 for it's supernatural just like you 976 00:37:57,769 --> 00:37:56,429 can't claim that Noah didn't built that 977 00:38:00,439 --> 00:37:57,779 build that Ark because there are 978 00:38:02,479 --> 00:38:00,449 evidence of nails you cannot prove that 979 00:38:04,130 --> 00:38:02,489 he didn't build that Ark you can't prove 980 00:38:05,299 --> 00:38:04,140 that right I can't prove he didn't build 981 00:38:07,279 --> 00:38:05,309 the Ark I can just say it's incredibly 982 00:38:11,179 --> 00:38:07,289 unlikely but there's no I'm thinking 983 00:38:15,140 --> 00:38:11,189 that it's incredibly unlikely that after 984 00:38:18,349 --> 00:38:15,150 70 years of neuroscience in EEG science 985 00:38:21,799 --> 00:38:18,359 and thousands of peer-reviewed papers in 986 00:38:24,469 --> 00:38:21,809 both humans and animals that it's highly 987 00:38:26,449 --> 00:38:24,479 unlikely that they just oh gosh darn 988 00:38:28,939 --> 00:38:26,459 they missed something and there's this 989 00:38:30,529 --> 00:38:28,949 whole other area of consciousness that 990 00:38:32,209 --> 00:38:30,539 if they just had a little bit better 991 00:38:36,109 --> 00:38:32,219 measurement of it they would have it 992 00:38:37,909 --> 00:38:36,119 we're highly unlikely that's like a 993 00:38:39,229 --> 00:38:37,919 guaranteed a hundred percent that we 994 00:38:40,729 --> 00:38:39,239 there's lots of stuff about the brain we 995 00:38:42,380 --> 00:38:40,739 don't know I mean would you disagree 996 00:38:44,499 --> 00:38:42,390 with that statement that there's lots of 997 00:38:46,909 --> 00:38:44,509 stuff about the brain we don't know 998 00:38:49,549 --> 00:38:46,919 all's we can do is argue 999 00:38:51,709 --> 00:38:49,559 inside of the parameters of what's known 1000 00:38:53,809 --> 00:38:51,719 and what science this I don't even like 1001 00:38:55,999 --> 00:38:53,819 engaging in this because this is you 1002 00:38:57,919 --> 00:38:56,009 know what you've done a fantastic job 1003 00:39:00,259 --> 00:38:57,929 with this thus far I just don't like 1004 00:39:03,049 --> 00:39:00,269 getting into all the skeptical [\h__\h] 1005 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:03,059 of you know falsification this is all 1006 00:39:07,159 --> 00:39:04,650 just nonsense you just look at the 1007 00:39:09,259 --> 00:39:07,169 science you talk to the best experts if 1008 00:39:11,269 --> 00:39:09,269 you have a better expert I sent you all 1009 00:39:12,739 --> 00:39:11,279 those papers I you know I agree with all 1010 00:39:14,419 --> 00:39:12,749 that I agree with all the science oh you 1011 00:39:16,729 --> 00:39:14,429 don't agree with all of it because if 1012 00:39:18,919 --> 00:39:16,739 you agreed with all of it this is a 1013 00:39:22,189 --> 00:39:18,929 really interesting point that I'll make 1014 00:39:23,630 --> 00:39:22,199 unless I'm interrupting you and yet I do 1015 00:39:23,989 --> 00:39:23,640 want I do want to pick up on that too go 1016 00:39:27,019 --> 00:39:23,999 ahead 1017 00:39:29,029 --> 00:39:27,029 so the way we would normally in my 1018 00:39:32,269 --> 00:39:29,039 opinion the way we would normally handle 1019 00:39:34,549 --> 00:39:32,279 this is we would go to the researchers 1020 00:39:36,890 --> 00:39:34,559 who've really studied it and we'd look 1021 00:39:39,140 --> 00:39:36,900 at those researchers like dr. PIM van 1022 00:39:44,209 --> 00:39:39,150 Lommel that you mentioned dr. Jeff long 1023 00:39:45,769 --> 00:39:44,219 dr. Sam par Nia dr. pennant dr. Welch he 1024 00:39:48,319 --> 00:39:45,779 didn't really research near-death 1025 00:39:50,059 --> 00:39:48,329 experience he just had one and then he 1026 00:39:51,380 --> 00:39:50,069 researched a little bit afterwards but 1027 00:39:53,659 --> 00:39:51,390 all these other people what's 1028 00:39:55,729 --> 00:39:53,669 interesting about them tom is they just 1029 00:39:57,529 --> 00:39:55,739 were curious they were doctors you 1030 00:40:00,019 --> 00:39:57,539 talked to Jeff long is the great guy 1031 00:40:02,059 --> 00:40:00,029 I've talked to many times he's just 1032 00:40:05,059 --> 00:40:02,069 doing his thing he's a radiation 1033 00:40:06,470 --> 00:40:05,069 oncologist but when he was you know 1034 00:40:09,290 --> 00:40:06,480 during his residency 1035 00:40:11,390 --> 00:40:09,300 he stumbled across these people that 1036 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:11,400 seemed to come back from the dead and 1037 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:13,530 report these things he's like it's like 1038 00:40:16,910 --> 00:40:14,970 looking around like a did everyone else 1039 00:40:18,710 --> 00:40:16,920 see this what's going on and he couldn't 1040 00:40:21,230 --> 00:40:18,720 believe that everyone else is like hey 1041 00:40:23,630 --> 00:40:21,240 man don't go there you know just got to 1042 00:40:26,329 --> 00:40:23,640 do your thing well he did his thing but 1043 00:40:29,079 --> 00:40:26,339 he also went there the same with Pen van 1044 00:40:31,700 --> 00:40:29,089 LOM oh he's a world recognized 1045 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:31,710 cardiologist in the Netherlands and he 1046 00:40:36,710 --> 00:40:33,810 just stumbles across this and he says 1047 00:40:39,380 --> 00:40:36,720 I'm not gonna let this go so these guys 1048 00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:39,390 don't have an agenda they're not on the 1049 00:40:43,460 --> 00:40:41,250 board of the Christian Church of 1050 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:43,470 whatever trying to advance something 1051 00:40:48,230 --> 00:40:46,290 they're just curious doctors wondering 1052 00:40:51,530 --> 00:40:48,240 what their patients are experienced so 1053 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:51,540 normally what we do is just rely heavily 1054 00:40:57,470 --> 00:40:55,010 on their conclusions and the most 1055 00:40:59,240 --> 00:40:57,480 hard-ass one of them was Sam Varney I 1056 00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:59,250 interviewed him on this show several 1057 00:41:03,650 --> 00:41:01,440 times I interviewed him few years ago 1058 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:03,660 and I said what's your conclusion about 1059 00:41:07,609 --> 00:41:05,490 all this and he goes if I had to 1060 00:41:09,740 --> 00:41:07,619 conclude at this point I'd say that this 1061 00:41:12,710 --> 00:41:09,750 is a trick of the mind and I really held 1062 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:12,720 his feet to the fire I really was held 1063 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:14,490 this week to fire the trick of the mind 1064 00:41:19,010 --> 00:41:16,890 didn't I and he said and he goes well I 1065 00:41:20,780 --> 00:41:19,020 don't know that uh but he kind of held 1066 00:41:22,819 --> 00:41:20,790 to that position and then few years 1067 00:41:25,460 --> 00:41:22,829 later he did more research and he said 1068 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:25,470 you know I was undecided before now I'm 1069 00:41:30,410 --> 00:41:27,810 decided I'm with everyone else it 1070 00:41:33,020 --> 00:41:30,420 appears by every way that we understand 1071 00:41:35,569 --> 00:41:33,030 it kochak consciousness seems to survive 1072 00:41:37,819 --> 00:41:35,579 bodily death so that's what every 1073 00:41:40,450 --> 00:41:37,829 near-death experiencer down the line 1074 00:41:43,220 --> 00:41:40,460 looking at it in every possible way 1075 00:41:44,839 --> 00:41:43,230 looking at blood samples if there's any 1076 00:41:46,579 --> 00:41:44,849 blood change if they're looking at 1077 00:41:48,319 --> 00:41:46,589 chemicals in the brain looking at brain 1078 00:41:51,069 --> 00:41:48,329 activity looking at the whole shebang 1079 00:41:53,809 --> 00:41:51,079 they all come to the same conclusion 1080 00:41:56,599 --> 00:41:53,819 consciousness survives bodily death so 1081 00:41:58,640 --> 00:41:56,609 Tom you can jump in there and say maybe 1082 00:42:02,329 --> 00:41:58,650 they missed something but I think it 1083 00:42:04,700 --> 00:42:02,339 behooves you to kind of bring something 1084 00:42:05,870 --> 00:42:04,710 to the table with evidence a little more 1085 00:42:08,930 --> 00:42:05,880 and more point I know I'm you let me go 1086 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:08,940 on for a long time Shermer Michael 1087 00:42:12,260 --> 00:42:09,930 Shermer who is 1088 00:42:15,530 --> 00:42:12,270 like I said in my multiple interviews 1089 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:15,540 with me is my favorite frenemy I like 1090 00:42:19,910 --> 00:42:16,890 the guy I always have a good time when I 1091 00:42:23,589 --> 00:42:19,920 talk to him it's fun but his position is 1092 00:42:25,789 --> 00:42:23,599 it's worse than wacky what he's done is 1093 00:42:26,539 --> 00:42:25,799 misrepresented and this is clear to 1094 00:42:28,789 --> 00:42:26,549 anyone 1095 00:42:30,650 --> 00:42:28,799 he's misrepresented the position of the 1096 00:42:32,539 --> 00:42:30,660 near-death experience researchers so 1097 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:32,549 he's taking pin Van LOM oh and said oh 1098 00:42:38,269 --> 00:42:35,490 no pin line mama said the opposite and 1099 00:42:39,859 --> 00:42:38,279 it pissed off pin violence so much that 1100 00:42:42,500 --> 00:42:39,869 he hadn't tried a parent had to write a 1101 00:42:44,839 --> 00:42:42,510 response ago dammit Shermer you inside 1102 00:42:47,779 --> 00:42:44,849 the memory you wrote that I said this no 1103 00:42:49,599 --> 00:42:47,789 I said the opposite so that is the 1104 00:42:52,339 --> 00:42:49,609 current state so if you're going to 1105 00:42:55,519 --> 00:42:52,349 counter that I just think it behooves 1106 00:42:58,940 --> 00:42:55,529 you to bring some science to the table 1107 00:43:00,799 --> 00:42:58,950 not just your opinion about Edison and 1108 00:43:02,690 --> 00:43:00,809 it might be discovered down I mean that 1109 00:43:05,230 --> 00:43:02,700 these guys have looked at it dude it's 1110 00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:05,240 not like this hasn't been explored right 1111 00:43:10,549 --> 00:43:07,710 right so I don't I'm not gonna try and 1112 00:43:13,910 --> 00:43:10,559 defend Michael Shermer like no so here's 1113 00:43:15,650 --> 00:43:13,920 the position science the I agree with 1114 00:43:16,759 --> 00:43:15,660 all I don't I'm not gonna argue that any 1115 00:43:18,049 --> 00:43:16,769 of those people are biased or that 1116 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:18,059 they're trying to manipulate the 1117 00:43:21,230 --> 00:43:19,410 research or that any of their research 1118 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:21,240 is wrong I'm happy to grant all of their 1119 00:43:24,349 --> 00:43:23,010 research the part I'm rejecting is their 1120 00:43:25,910 --> 00:43:24,359 conclusion which is why there's 1121 00:43:27,319 --> 00:43:25,920 criticized so heavily because everyone 1122 00:43:29,269 --> 00:43:27,329 is rejecting their conclusion and the 1123 00:43:31,490 --> 00:43:29,279 reason is because their conclusion goes 1124 00:43:33,220 --> 00:43:31,500 beyond the evidence their conclusion 1125 00:43:36,170 --> 00:43:33,230 like as you admitted earlier is 1126 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:36,180 unsupported like like they're on equal 1127 00:43:39,740 --> 00:43:37,890 terms The Naturalist explanation and the 1128 00:43:42,319 --> 00:43:39,750 supernatural explanation neither have 1129 00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:42,329 science to support them so get all of 1130 00:43:45,289 --> 00:43:43,710 the science indicates right now is that 1131 00:43:47,809 --> 00:43:45,299 at a certain level we can measure brain 1132 00:43:49,460 --> 00:43:47,819 activity at that level we cannot measure 1133 00:43:51,499 --> 00:43:49,470 brain activity occurring in these states 1134 00:43:53,420 --> 00:43:51,509 and there are still stuff happening now 1135 00:43:54,650 --> 00:43:53,430 that doesn't indicate it's natural it 1136 00:43:56,720 --> 00:43:54,660 doesn't indicate it's supernatural that 1137 00:43:57,829 --> 00:43:56,730 just means we don't know what's going on 1138 00:44:00,140 --> 00:43:57,839 full-stop 1139 00:44:01,670 --> 00:44:00,150 that's where the science ends and going 1140 00:44:03,049 --> 00:44:01,680 beyond that and either direction is 1141 00:44:05,059 --> 00:44:03,059 unsupported whether you want to say it's 1142 00:44:07,249 --> 00:44:05,069 a supernatural thing or a satchel thing 1143 00:44:09,529 --> 00:44:07,259 either one is unsupported and so my 1144 00:44:11,690 --> 00:44:09,539 position is that their conclusions are 1145 00:44:12,980 --> 00:44:11,700 equally unsupported as me saying well 1146 00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:12,990 it's just a natural process like this 1147 00:44:16,910 --> 00:44:14,880 thing I described earlier we don't know 1148 00:44:18,529 --> 00:44:16,920 and so coming to that conclusion is 1149 00:44:24,529 --> 00:44:18,539 unsupported which is why they're 1150 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:24,539 criticized yeah I mean III don't know I 1151 00:44:30,529 --> 00:44:27,210 think it's been a fair you know fair 1152 00:44:32,539 --> 00:44:30,539 discussion at this point you know I'm at 1153 00:44:33,830 --> 00:44:32,549 the frustration point with with that I 1154 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:33,840 get with skeptics and your 1155 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:37,770 way above way way on the top of the heap 1156 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:39,210 in terms of the skeptics I've talked to 1157 00:44:45,380 --> 00:44:40,890 so I commend you for everything you're 1158 00:44:48,500 --> 00:44:45,390 doing the part I did is you know to jump 1159 00:44:51,890 --> 00:44:48,510 off then and say you know kind of like 1160 00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:51,900 they missed it it's like man go talk to 1161 00:44:57,620 --> 00:44:53,730 these guys these guys are super sharp 1162 00:44:59,630 --> 00:44:57,630 they don't miss the obvious [\h__\h] like 1163 00:45:01,550 --> 00:44:59,640 that they don't they don't miss stuff 1164 00:45:04,490 --> 00:45:01,560 they've looked for it every which way 1165 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:04,500 but you're entitled to to your opinion 1166 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:07,650 and you're certainly you've dug into the 1167 00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:10,170 data I commend you for that and you know 1168 00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:12,510 you're we just have a difference at that 1169 00:45:17,420 --> 00:45:14,400 point that is kind of we can't really 1170 00:45:19,010 --> 00:45:17,430 resolve I think we we're blocking their 1171 00:45:20,420 --> 00:45:19,020 set up an interview where I can ask them 1172 00:45:21,860 --> 00:45:20,430 these questions because I'm pretty sure 1173 00:45:24,340 --> 00:45:21,870 I can get them to admit the same thing 1174 00:45:28,220 --> 00:45:24,350 I'd be happy to talk with any of them oh 1175 00:45:30,230 --> 00:45:28,230 yeah I don't even have to set it I'm 1176 00:45:33,290 --> 00:45:30,240 happy to what you tell me who you want 1177 00:45:34,790 --> 00:45:33,300 to I'm happy to help you whoever will be 1178 00:45:36,500 --> 00:45:34,800 the best in this you tell me you you 1179 00:45:37,820 --> 00:45:36,510 tell me you tell me whoever you want to 1180 00:45:40,070 --> 00:45:37,830 talk to you and go through I have all 1181 00:45:42,110 --> 00:45:40,080 all my shows are on there pick who you 1182 00:45:45,020 --> 00:45:42,120 know pick a show that you say BAM you 1183 00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:45,030 think that guy is you know is somebody 1184 00:45:48,980 --> 00:45:47,040 I'd like to talk to and I'll do it you 1185 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:48,990 got to be kind of careful how you 1186 00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:50,490 approach him because there a lot of them 1187 00:45:56,090 --> 00:45:53,250 are pretty reluctant to talk to skeptics 1188 00:45:58,700 --> 00:45:56,100 because of this thing it's like right 1189 00:46:02,210 --> 00:45:58,710 you can't go talk to Penn van lhamo who 1190 00:46:04,310 --> 00:46:02,220 is a world-class cardiologist who's 1191 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:04,320 published all this [\h__\h] and say yeah 1192 00:46:10,220 --> 00:46:06,690 dude but your conclusion is wack you 1193 00:46:14,060 --> 00:46:10,230 know it's not I mean that just it just 1194 00:46:15,950 --> 00:46:14,070 doesn't fly it's not how it it's not how 1195 00:46:18,710 --> 00:46:15,960 it works he didn't miss anything 1196 00:46:20,990 --> 00:46:18,720 he's been to all the conference's his 1197 00:46:22,970 --> 00:46:21,000 conclusion the only thing you can say is 1198 00:46:25,610 --> 00:46:22,980 like Shermer did Shermer took on 1199 00:46:27,530 --> 00:46:25,620 pendulum oh and he just misrepresented 1200 00:46:29,270 --> 00:46:27,540 what he said the same thing with 1201 00:46:30,770 --> 00:46:29,280 patricia churchland you can go listen to 1202 00:46:32,090 --> 00:46:30,780 my interview with her you know Shurmur 1203 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:32,100 was the first one to do it 1204 00:46:37,340 --> 00:46:35,010 Shermer took pinv animals thing and he 1205 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:37,350 said what you said he said yeah but his 1206 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:39,810 conclusion is it's really simple what 1207 00:46:44,660 --> 00:46:42,570 Michael Shermer said is here's pinv an 1208 00:46:46,940 --> 00:46:44,670 llamas near-death experience research 1209 00:46:48,019 --> 00:46:46,950 and if you really look at it the way 1210 00:46:51,529 --> 00:46:48,029 that I'm looking at 1211 00:46:54,019 --> 00:46:51,539 it supports my position that it's a 1212 00:46:55,819 --> 00:46:54,029 physical process it's materialism that 1213 00:46:58,249 --> 00:46:55,829 would be mature I wouldn't do that 1214 00:46:58,879 --> 00:46:58,259 so my hold on that's what Shermer did 1215 00:47:01,069 --> 00:46:58,889 right 1216 00:47:03,679 --> 00:47:01,079 that's what patricia churchland did 1217 00:47:05,149 --> 00:47:03,689 that's what the research I forget her 1218 00:47:08,149 --> 00:47:05,159 name right now who's publishing another 1219 00:47:11,629 --> 00:47:08,159 peer-reviewed thing a peer-reviewed 1220 00:47:13,939 --> 00:47:11,639 paper did they all took Penn van LOM oh 1221 00:47:16,849 --> 00:47:13,949 and they copied it and they copied and 1222 00:47:18,969 --> 00:47:16,859 copied it and I went and interviewed all 1223 00:47:21,589 --> 00:47:18,979 of them and they're all full of [\h__\h] and 1224 00:47:23,929 --> 00:47:21,599 Patricia Churchland was a babbling idiot 1225 00:47:27,079 --> 00:47:23,939 because I said you know I was nice but I 1226 00:47:30,409 --> 00:47:27,089 said here is what you said and here's 1227 00:47:32,899 --> 00:47:30,419 what PIM van Lommel said so it just 1228 00:47:35,539 --> 00:47:32,909 doesn't really uh it doesn't make sense 1229 00:47:37,459 --> 00:47:35,549 for you to sit there and say you know I 1230 00:47:41,689 --> 00:47:37,469 want to talk to Penn van Lama and tell 1231 00:47:43,639 --> 00:47:41,699 him his conclusion from the data isn't 1232 00:47:45,979 --> 00:47:43,649 correct because I'm gonna point out some 1233 00:47:47,329 --> 00:47:45,989 kind of you know one can possibly know 1234 00:47:48,979 --> 00:47:47,339 everything come think I mean that's 1235 00:47:50,899 --> 00:47:48,989 gonna be an embarrassing situation free 1236 00:47:52,549 --> 00:47:50,909 for you and he wouldn't agree to it but 1237 00:47:54,829 --> 00:47:52,559 you can send him an email he gets those 1238 00:47:56,149 --> 00:47:54,839 emails all the time and he'll respond or 1239 00:47:58,549 --> 00:47:56,159 send it to me and I'll send it to him 1240 00:48:00,409 --> 00:47:58,559 and ask him to respond but you get the 1241 00:48:03,259 --> 00:48:00,419 point I mean that's a flat earth kind of 1242 00:48:07,549 --> 00:48:03,269 thing I mean you can't go to get two 1243 00:48:09,079 --> 00:48:07,559 people in you know a geologist and talk 1244 00:48:11,659 --> 00:48:09,089 about Flat Earth I mean they're just 1245 00:48:13,819 --> 00:48:11,669 like dude I'm not wasting my time about 1246 00:48:15,889 --> 00:48:13,829 it you know so for you to go and say you 1247 00:48:17,509 --> 00:48:15,899 missed something there's something else 1248 00:48:19,189 --> 00:48:17,519 out there we just haven't discovered it 1249 00:48:21,589 --> 00:48:19,199 yet they're not gonna take that 1250 00:48:23,029 --> 00:48:21,599 seriously well that's really interesting 1251 00:48:24,799 --> 00:48:23,039 because of the problem of under 1252 00:48:26,509 --> 00:48:24,809 determination which is in science means 1253 00:48:28,159 --> 00:48:26,519 that you always do that that's just a 1254 00:48:29,449 --> 00:48:28,169 fact you always miss something there's 1255 00:48:31,279 --> 00:48:29,459 nothing nowhere you know who you should 1256 00:48:34,129 --> 00:48:31,289 talk you know who you should talk to 1257 00:48:35,870 --> 00:48:34,139 then Tom you should talk to people and 1258 00:48:38,449 --> 00:48:35,880 like I said here would be my suggestion 1259 00:48:40,999 --> 00:48:38,459 is talk to people not the near-death 1260 00:48:43,609 --> 00:48:41,009 experience science people talk to the 1261 00:48:46,339 --> 00:48:43,619 neuroscience people and take take 1262 00:48:48,049 --> 00:48:46,349 NDE the near-death experience out of it 1263 00:48:51,829 --> 00:48:48,059 right off you like the guy I talked to 1264 00:48:53,779 --> 00:48:51,839 in the EEG thing and say hey is it 1265 00:48:55,939 --> 00:48:53,789 possible that you know I know you've 1266 00:48:57,529 --> 00:48:55,949 studied EEG I know that is it possible 1267 00:48:59,389 --> 00:48:57,539 that there's something else out there 1268 00:49:01,640 --> 00:48:59,399 because that's your position that we 1269 00:49:03,049 --> 00:49:01,650 haven't discovered or that 1270 00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:03,059 before I was asking for you to like 1271 00:49:06,319 --> 00:49:04,710 could you set something up for exactly 1272 00:49:09,049 --> 00:49:06,329 that I want to talk about you giving up 1273 00:49:10,819 --> 00:49:09,059 your experience you know it's been here 1274 00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:10,829 it's been years since I talked to that 1275 00:49:13,370 --> 00:49:11,250 guy 1276 00:49:14,930 --> 00:49:13,380 you can try and talk to him again he's 1277 00:49:17,390 --> 00:49:14,940 easy to find on my website if you don't 1278 00:49:19,220 --> 00:49:17,400 find him but email me I'll email you who 1279 00:49:20,900 --> 00:49:19,230 he is but you can find a dozen other 1280 00:49:22,730 --> 00:49:20,910 people and then you know how it is you 1281 00:49:24,079 --> 00:49:22,740 do these shows you just have to track 1282 00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:24,089 them down and see if they'll talk to you 1283 00:49:28,220 --> 00:49:26,130 but if you take it take the NDE 1284 00:49:30,230 --> 00:49:28,230 out of it and just ask it and say you 1285 00:49:33,589 --> 00:49:30,240 don't say that say is it possible that 1286 00:49:35,210 --> 00:49:33,599 there's some or either that then you 1287 00:49:36,500 --> 00:49:35,220 know do it and don't do it within 1288 00:49:39,109 --> 00:49:36,510 near-death experience just do it with 1289 00:49:40,849 --> 00:49:39,119 the neuroscience guys young guys I've 1290 00:49:43,339 --> 00:49:40,859 done that I've gotten the answers I know 1291 00:49:45,410 --> 00:49:43,349 that we there's a ton about the brain we 1292 00:49:47,029 --> 00:49:45,420 don't know and every single one of them 1293 00:49:48,260 --> 00:49:47,039 I've talked to has admitted this 100% of 1294 00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:48,270 the time this is why I'm asking for you 1295 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:50,250 so what have you practice have you 1296 00:49:53,450 --> 00:49:52,170 talked to I go to the University of 1297 00:49:54,799 --> 00:49:53,460 Minnesota and talk to neurologists and 1298 00:49:57,170 --> 00:49:54,809 biologists all the time I work with one 1299 00:49:58,849 --> 00:49:57,180 who's doing research on rat brains and 1300 00:50:01,309 --> 00:49:58,859 certain kinds of things I do this all 1301 00:50:02,809 --> 00:50:01,319 the time so tell me who would you be 1302 00:50:06,980 --> 00:50:02,819 convinced by if I could talk to and they 1303 00:50:09,260 --> 00:50:06,990 won't I'll be happy then get your get 1304 00:50:11,569 --> 00:50:09,270 your neuroscience guy from Minnesota you 1305 00:50:13,940 --> 00:50:11,579 know I'll talk buddy this is who would 1306 00:50:17,150 --> 00:50:13,950 you be convinced by tell me you want me 1307 00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:17,160 to talk it's your position I'm like I'm 1308 00:50:21,349 --> 00:50:19,170 telling you man no I know you don't talk 1309 00:50:23,690 --> 00:50:21,359 to him we'll talk to them together a 1310 00:50:25,849 --> 00:50:23,700 time to get someone to say to get 1311 00:50:27,410 --> 00:50:25,859 someone to say is it possible that 1312 00:50:30,740 --> 00:50:27,420 there's something that we don't know 1313 00:50:33,740 --> 00:50:30,750 about the brain I mean [\h__\h] yes anyone's 1314 00:50:35,779 --> 00:50:33,750 gonna say that rights rights but why you 1315 00:50:37,069 --> 00:50:35,789 so why are you so happy about that but 1316 00:50:39,230 --> 00:50:37,079 what I'm saying that that's just not a 1317 00:50:42,049 --> 00:50:39,240 logical way to do it that's like the 1318 00:50:43,730 --> 00:50:42,059 Flat Earth guys going is it possible is 1319 00:50:45,799 --> 00:50:43,740 it possible that they that these 1320 00:50:47,150 --> 00:50:45,809 everyone has missed something and like 1321 00:50:49,549 --> 00:50:47,160 you said when we had this thing about 1322 00:50:52,130 --> 00:50:49,559 the Noah's Ark thing and you said it's 1323 00:50:54,109 --> 00:50:52,140 that's possible just highly unlikely 1324 00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:54,119 well that's what they're gonna tell you 1325 00:50:59,809 --> 00:50:56,970 about the idea that there's something 1326 00:51:02,180 --> 00:50:59,819 that everyone for 70 years is missed and 1327 00:51:04,490 --> 00:51:02,190 that even when these brains are flat 1328 00:51:06,430 --> 00:51:04,500 there's still all this consciousness 1329 00:51:08,809 --> 00:51:06,440 that's going on they're gonna go tom 1330 00:51:10,730 --> 00:51:08,819 maybe dude because we can't say 1331 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:10,740 everything isn't we can't say anything's 1332 00:51:15,380 --> 00:51:12,690 impossible but that is highly highly 1333 00:51:17,059 --> 00:51:15,390 highly unlikely from every 1334 00:51:18,049 --> 00:51:17,069 thing that we've seen so far so that's 1335 00:51:21,769 --> 00:51:18,059 the point we're going over the same 1336 00:51:23,089 --> 00:51:21,779 thing again again I'm happy to talk I'm 1337 00:51:24,589 --> 00:51:23,099 not gonna prove you wrong on that just 1338 00:51:26,299 --> 00:51:24,599 give me an opportunity tell me who you 1339 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:26,309 want me to talk to and I will prove you 1340 00:51:33,049 --> 00:51:30,210 wrong in five minutes on this we will I 1341 00:51:35,180 --> 00:51:33,059 will agree to jointly talk with anyone 1342 00:51:37,099 --> 00:51:35,190 that you want to tell anyone that you 1343 00:51:38,329 --> 00:51:37,109 bring on I'm not going to go trace that 1344 00:51:41,630 --> 00:51:38,339 down for the reasons that I just told 1345 00:51:43,339 --> 00:51:41,640 you it's kind of an absurd idea you know 1346 00:51:45,109 --> 00:51:43,349 to get someone to admit that we don't 1347 00:51:47,329 --> 00:51:45,119 know everything about the brain hey we 1348 00:51:48,740 --> 00:51:47,339 don't know everything about the brain my 1349 00:51:50,180 --> 00:51:48,750 point is I don't know everything about 1350 00:51:52,279 --> 00:51:50,190 the brain then why are you jumping to 1351 00:51:54,559 --> 00:51:52,289 the conclusion it's not the brain I'm 1352 00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:54,569 saying the same this is a part that we 1353 00:51:58,819 --> 00:51:56,490 just got to end this I'm telling you I 1354 00:52:01,460 --> 00:51:58,829 talked to a guy you can find my my 1355 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:01,470 website world renowned expert in eg and 1356 00:52:05,690 --> 00:52:04,170 he says is there any chance that there's 1357 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:05,700 anything going on that isn't being 1358 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:08,970 measured by eg he says no it's it's just 1359 00:52:13,579 --> 00:52:11,010 would be highly highly unlikely because 1360 00:52:15,589 --> 00:52:13,589 we have all this research that we've 1361 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:15,599 done for 70 years with thousands of 1362 00:52:19,549 --> 00:52:17,970 papers that animals and humans it's just 1363 00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:19,559 highly unlikely that there's something 1364 00:52:23,930 --> 00:52:21,690 that is out there that hasn't happened 1365 00:52:25,730 --> 00:52:23,940 yet so might it happen in the future 1366 00:52:27,470 --> 00:52:25,740 like all that's sure but that's not 1367 00:52:29,390 --> 00:52:27,480 where these people are at it would just 1368 00:52:33,319 --> 00:52:29,400 be an incredibly embarrassing 1369 00:52:35,839 --> 00:52:33,329 conversation to say yeah I know that but 1370 00:52:38,359 --> 00:52:35,849 is it possible is it possible that 1371 00:52:42,109 --> 00:52:38,369 there's something more he's like dude I 1372 00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:42,119 study eg science all the time there's 1373 00:52:47,420 --> 00:52:44,730 never anything in the literature like 1374 00:52:49,730 --> 00:52:47,430 what you're saying is it possible is it 1375 00:52:51,980 --> 00:52:49,740 possible that it's out there yeah maybe 1376 00:52:53,749 --> 00:52:51,990 it's possible but it's just that's not 1377 00:52:55,970 --> 00:52:53,759 where these guys if they haven't found 1378 00:52:57,319 --> 00:52:55,980 it they haven't seen it well you're 1379 00:52:59,269 --> 00:52:57,329 contradicting yourself I mean I can 1380 00:53:01,519 --> 00:52:59,279 prove this in five seconds yes there are 1381 00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:01,529 things in the brain we can't okay okay 1382 00:53:07,279 --> 00:53:03,930 all right all right genes only measure 1383 00:53:08,839 --> 00:53:07,289 to a certain degree yeah I don't as 1384 00:53:11,450 --> 00:53:08,849 you're smaller so I can prove that the 1385 00:53:13,759 --> 00:53:11,460 fact in science you're just wrong I hear 1386 00:53:17,740 --> 00:53:13,769 you're you are right about all those 1387 00:53:19,940 --> 00:53:17,750 things it's we don't know everything so 1388 00:53:21,170 --> 00:53:19,950 right and that's just my conclusion we 1389 00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:21,180 don't know everything we have a right 1390 00:53:24,259 --> 00:53:22,650 kind of information it doesn't indicate 1391 00:53:25,730 --> 00:53:24,269 your conclusion just like it doesn't 1392 00:53:26,599 --> 00:53:25,740 indicate a different other conclusion 1393 00:53:28,309 --> 00:53:26,609 that doesn't have any evidence 1394 00:53:29,330 --> 00:53:28,319 they're both unsupported we can't jump 1395 00:53:30,980 --> 00:53:29,340 beyond the Evan 1396 00:53:33,620 --> 00:53:30,990 to a conclusion that isn't supported by 1397 00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:33,630 the evidence t jump can't jump beyond 1398 00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:36,090 the evidence that's a good that'd be a 1399 00:53:41,210 --> 00:53:39,090 good tagline alright I do appreciate 1400 00:53:43,610 --> 00:53:41,220 your approach and I appreciate the 1401 00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:43,620 debate it was good yeah thanks for 1402 00:53:45,470 --> 00:53:44,730 coming on I really appreciate you take 1403 00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:45,480 the time to have a conversation 1404 00:53:51,350 --> 00:53:48,090 absolutely I mean everything I say I 1405 00:53:53,300 --> 00:53:51,360 respect your your ability to dig into 1406 00:53:55,180 --> 00:53:53,310 the data and we don't have to agree 1407 00:53:57,650 --> 00:53:55,190 these conversations are important so 1408 00:53:59,810 --> 00:53:57,660 sorry cuz if you could just give me a 1409 00:54:00,920 --> 00:53:59,820 name I'll reach out PIM van Lommel and 1410 00:54:02,270 --> 00:54:00,930 do the other people because I'd like to 1411 00:54:04,070 --> 00:54:02,280 have this conversation if they're 1412 00:54:05,780 --> 00:54:04,080 willing and I've had conversations with 1413 00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:05,790 young earth creationist and other people 1414 00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:08,970 so I I I think they I'm polite enough 1415 00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:10,050 that they may be willing to have the 1416 00:54:13,910 --> 00:54:12,210 conversation so I'd love to have to try 1417 00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:13,920 and it reach out to them and see if 1418 00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:16,410 they'd be willing to I will support you 1419 00:54:19,610 --> 00:54:17,850 in that in terms of you send an email 1420 00:54:21,290 --> 00:54:19,620 tell me who you want to talk to I'll try 1421 00:54:22,970 --> 00:54:21,300 and hook you up but you can't do what I 1422 00:54:25,340 --> 00:54:22,980 just said that is an embarrassing 1423 00:54:27,230 --> 00:54:25,350 situation and I wouldn't set that up I 1424 00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:27,240 wouldn't set up a situation where you're 1425 00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:29,970 gonna get someone to say but would you 1426 00:54:34,190 --> 00:54:31,890 agree that we don't know everything 1427 00:54:36,050 --> 00:54:34,200 would you agree that there might be 1428 00:54:38,750 --> 00:54:36,060 something in the future that will best 1429 00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:38,760 prove that that's that's flat earth [\h__\h] 1430 00:54:43,340 --> 00:54:41,010 it's just it's just flat earth [\h__\h] man 1431 00:54:45,410 --> 00:54:43,350 I'm not going to create that kind of 1432 00:54:47,330 --> 00:54:45,420 situation it's not professional it's not 1433 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:47,340 scientific you could say that about 1434 00:54:51,470 --> 00:54:49,290 anything and I don't want to go there so 1435 00:54:53,330 --> 00:54:51,480 if you have specifics I'm happy to 1436 00:54:54,830 --> 00:54:53,340 connect you otherwise if you want to 1437 00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:54,840 connect with somebody on your own I'm 1438 00:54:58,970 --> 00:54:56,610 happy to be part of that but those are 1439 00:55:01,280 --> 00:54:58,980 the only parameters I put on that well I 1440 00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:01,290 mean yeah I that's I mean you just keep 1441 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:03,930 what you call no no it's just the way it 1442 00:55:08,210 --> 00:55:05,610 is you can do it do it on your own 1443 00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:08,220 there's nothing to do I not agree I'm 1444 00:55:11,270 --> 00:55:09,450 told you're right you're right on that I 1445 00:55:12,530 --> 00:55:11,280 plan to do it on my own but the part I'm 1446 00:55:13,970 --> 00:55:12,540 disagreeing with is when you say that's 1447 00:55:14,860 --> 00:55:13,980 unscientific what you're saying is 1448 00:55:19,670 --> 00:55:14,870 unscientific 1449 00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:19,680 it's literacy go talk to the flat earth 1450 00:55:23,990 --> 00:55:22,290 people they're all over science right go 1451 00:55:26,030 --> 00:55:24,000 talk to the flat earth people they will 1452 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:26,040 talk to you about science all day long 1453 00:55:31,460 --> 00:55:28,650 so right yeah that's you're you're in 1454 00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:31,470 European flag earth territory with this 1455 00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:33,450 I we've talked about it a million times 1456 00:55:36,710 --> 00:55:34,050 man 1457 00:55:38,420 --> 00:55:36,720 weird it's great terrify that one point 1458 00:55:40,340 --> 00:55:38,430 is what you keep saying is Flat Earth II 1459 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:40,350 is the definition of science you're 1460 00:55:43,130 --> 00:55:42,210 saying definition of science is 1461 00:55:44,810 --> 00:55:43,140 flattering because what I'm 1462 00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:44,820 voting here is just philosophy of 1463 00:55:49,010 --> 00:55:47,490 science 101 problems alright alright we 1464 00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:49,020 don't know everything we're in agreement 1465 00:55:54,470 --> 00:55:51,690 there's many more much more to be 1466 00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:54,480 discovered again thanks again for coming 1467 00:55:58,610 --> 00:55:56,010 on I really enjoyed our conversation I 1468 00:56:00,470 --> 00:55:58,620 didn't cheat on so thanks for watching 1469 00:56:03,020 --> 00:56:00,480 this video if it wasn't really a video 1470 00:56:05,030 --> 00:56:03,030 but just an audio stored as a video I 1471 00:56:07,070 --> 00:56:05,040 apologize but there's more videos out 1472 00:56:09,050 --> 00:56:07,080 there as well but please check out the 1473 00:56:10,340 --> 00:56:09,060 skeptic Co website you can see it here 1474 00:56:12,740 --> 00:56:10,350 we cover a lot of different stuff you 1475 00:56:15,860 --> 00:56:12,750 might be interested in relating to 1476 00:56:18,980 --> 00:56:15,870 controversial science and spirituality a 1477 00:56:21,350 --> 00:56:18,990 lot of shows up there over 350 of them 1478 00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:21,360 are so all free all available for